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-   -   Order of adjectives (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=4158)

brute June 01, 2009 02:20 PM

Order of adjectives
 
In English there is a "rule" of syntax that few native English speakers have ever been taught. Foreign students, however, need to learn it.
This concerns the order of adjectives attached to a single noun in a sentence.
Native English speakers seem to follow the rule intuitively.
One can classify adjectives into a sequence of 7 types :
1 Personal opinion: beautiful, interesting
2 Size: big, small
3 Age: young, old
4 Shape: round, square
5 Colour: red, yellow
6 Nationality: Spanish, English
7 Material: plastic, glass
8 Purpose: hearing (aid)

So, one would say:
An interesting 1 little 2
old 3
black 5
American 6
woman.

Any other order sounds "un-English"
Do Spanish adjectives follow a similar sequence?

irmamar June 01, 2009 02:40 PM

In Spanish there isn't a rule to order the adjectives, just the use of comma and a conjunction (y, e, etc.). Usually, when you use several adjectives, one of them is in front of the name (usually to highlight something). Furthermore, in Spanish, two (or three) adjectives of your example become into a noun: old + woman = vieja (+ little = viejecita)

Una interesante viejecita, negra y americana.

Anyway, you must be careful of the adjective you put in front of the name. A different sentence would be:

Una vieja negra (or "una negra vieja"), pequeña y americana (here I've omitted "interesting")

Anyway, I'm grateful because of your list :)

Tomisimo June 01, 2009 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brute (Post 37639)
Do Spanish adjectives follow a similar sequence?

I'll let a native speaker answer that. But I just wanted to say great post and great information!

Here are some more examples:

little old rusty car
big red barn
hot running water
spicy colorful Mexican food

If you put the adjectives in any other order, it doesn't sound correct. (although there is some leeway with adjectives that fit into more than one category, such as "rusty" or "colorful" in the above examples)

irmamar June 01, 2009 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomisimo (Post 37648)
I'll let a native speaker answer that. But I just wanted to say great post and great information!

Here are some more examples:

little old rusty car
big red barn
hot running water
spicy colorful Mexican food

If you put the adjectives in any other order, it doesn't sound correct. (although there is some leeway with adjectives that fit into more than one category, such as "rusty" or "colorful" in the above examples)

Un viejo cochecito oxidado - un viejo y oxidado cochecito - un pequeño coche, viejo y oxidado, etc.
El gran establo rojo.
Agua corriente caliente (agua corriente siempre es en este orden)
Comida picante mexicana de colores vivos - Picante comida mexicana de vivos colores - Comida mexicana, picante y de vivos colores, etc.

Tomisimo June 01, 2009 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irmamar (Post 37653)
Un viejo cochecito oxidado - un viejo y oxidado cochecito - un pequeño coche, viejo y oxidado, etc.
El gran establo rojo.
Agua corriente caliente (agua corriente siempre es en este orden)
Comida picante mexicana de colores vivos - Picante comida mexicana de vivos colores - Comida mexicana, picante y de vivos colores, etc.

So I think there is more flexibility in this respect in Spanish. But in some of your examples, you used "viejo y oxidado" in that order. Would you ever say "oxidado y viejo"?

Fazor June 01, 2009 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomisimo (Post 37648)
(although there is some leeway with adjectives that fit into more than one category, such as "rusty" or "colorful" in the above examples)

I had started to type a response earlier, but didn't post it because I was lacking in some information.

But anyway, I agree. It seems that adjectives that describe similar features can be interchanged, but that there's still an underlying order to them. I never learned an order, so I don't know if it's a set grammatical rule, or just an artifact of how we're use to saying it. I do know an English grammar expert though, so I'll ask her.

It seems to me that the order is

[Opinion adjectives*] -> [Physical Features: Age, size, ect.] -> [Color] -> [Personal distinctions: Race, Nationality, religion, etc.].

But that leaves large gaps that maybe someone, or ourselves as a collective effort, can fill in.

Oh, and I astrix'ed the "opinion adjectives" because playing with them, you seem to be able to move them anywhere you want and it works, but some places sound better than others.

Tomisimo June 01, 2009 03:59 PM

I think what the innate grammatical rule boils down to is that the subjective, least defining adjectives are farthest away from the noun, while the most defining, most intrinsic, least subjective adjectives are closest to the noun.

So taking as an example, "the nice, smiling American lady", we can see that above all, the lady is an American lady-- being American is a more important piece of information than the fact that she is nice or smiling. Then we have "smiling", which is less important, it is something that can change easier, but it is less subjective than "nice".

bobjenkins June 01, 2009 05:30 PM

gracias, he esperado sobre,"cuáles orden del ajectivos es correcto, no reglas en este caso. :)

Fazor June 01, 2009 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomisimo (Post 37659)
I think what the innate grammatical rule boils down to is that the subjective, least defining adjectives are farthest away from the noun, while the most defining, most intrinsic, least subjective adjectives are closest to the noun.

That's pretty much what my "grammar expert" said. Most important (or personal) adjectives closest. Also, there's certain adjective pairings that always go in order together just because they're known. Best example is from above "Little old lady". "Little old" is just used so much, the pairing is pretty much automatic.

brute June 02, 2009 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fazor (Post 37657)
I had started to type a response earlier, but didn't post it because I was lacking in some information.

But anyway, I agree. It seems that adjectives that describe similar features can be interchanged, but that there's still an underlying order to them. I never learned an order, so I don't know if it's a set grammatical rule, or just an artifact of how we're use to saying it. I do know an English grammar expert though, so I'll ask her.

It seems to me that the order is

[Opinion adjectives*] -> [Physical Features: Age, size, ect.] -> [Color] -> [Personal distinctions: Race, Nationality, religion, etc.].

But that leaves large gaps that maybe someone, or ourselves as a collective effort, can fill in.

Oh, and I astrix'ed the "opinion adjectives" because playing with them, you seem to be able to move them anywhere you want and it works, but some places sound better than others.

This raises another question: What is the purpose of "rules" of grammar.

Are they designed to fossilise the way a language is used?
Are they simply an attempt to classify the way a language is used?

The former inhibits the evolution of a language, the latter encourages it.

The Academie Française has always done its best to keep French as it was in the time of Molière. They now seem to be losing the battle to prevent the invasion of English.

However, the English and Spanish languages seem not to be "ruled" by their so called "rules" and have been allowed to diverge into many interesting varietions. The rules are used to describe the language and not to prescribe it.

Perhaps the francophones are scared that their language will be diluted out of existence by contamination with other more dominant languages.


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