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-   -   Derógese (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=28724)

Tyrn December 19, 2023 06:28 AM

Derógese
 
Hi,

Is it to be repealed?

It's indeed a title of a list of documents.

UPD

It's worse, actually :) . Deróguese. What is it, grammatically?

Rusty December 19, 2023 05:37 PM

derogar = repeal (abolish, annul, overturn)
«derogue» is the command form (and the present subjunctive form).
There is no pronominal form of this verb.

You can find the command «deróguese» written in legal documents, where someone (or some group) is begging lawmakers to 'repeal' a law that's already on the books or one that is up for proposal. The use of the pronoun 'se' suggests that the agent making this entreaty is of no concern to the lawmakers.

You'll also discover, as I did, that in many legal documents this "passive" command form is spelled exactly as the thread title indicates (which is actually a misspelling!). This could be due to a preference by lawmakers to use old-fashioned looking language in legal documents (just as English legalese often looks and sounds). :eek:

AngelicaDeAlquezar December 19, 2023 07:52 PM

I agree with Rusty.
This an "impersonal imperative". Of course it's mostly found in legal documents, where an institution receives an order, but it's also used in any formal writing where a command is issued for someone we don't know who it will be.

- Acátese. -> Comply with it.
- Cúmplase. -> Carry it out.
- Entiéndase... -> Be interpreted as...
- Léase la nota al pie. -> Read the footnote.
- Preséntense los siguientes documentos. -> "These documents must be shown." This is not a command for the documents of course, just a formal way to say these documents must be shown at some desk.
- Repítase la dosis, de ser necesario. -> "Repeat the dose if needed." You can find this one in a bottle of medicine.
In all these cases, you are telling someone you don't know who it will be, to do something.

Of course you could say "Acate", "Cumpla", "Lea", etc., but in this case, you are assuming you have one person to be responsible for the action. In the examples, you don't know (and don't really care) who will be doing the job. You just need it done, and you are issuing a formal instruction for that.

Tyrn December 20, 2023 05:20 AM

Looks very much like escúchense, etc. Is plural form the key to distinguish one from another?

AngelicaDeAlquezar December 21, 2023 10:32 PM

I'm not sure what your question is about, but as usual, the context is everything. :thinking:
In my list of examples there is one in plural: "Preséntense los siguientes documentos".
Without any context, you may think that someone told a group of people to show those documents to one another, because the pronominal form would be likely in this case. However, if the same group of people is going to do some paperwork, they will know where to show the said documents.

Not knowing any context, the order "Escúchense", may be asking a group of people to listen to each other.
A different thing will be if you tell these same people: "Escúchense las siguientes instrucciones." In that case, they will all be attentive to the instructions that will be given to all of them, since it would be unlikely to tell them to give these instructions to one another, except in very specific cases. :)

Tyrn December 22, 2023 02:59 AM

Thanks! This is exactly the answer I hoped for :D .

AngelicaDeAlquezar December 22, 2023 10:58 PM

Glad to help. :D


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