Spanish language learning forums

Spanish language learning forums (http://forums.tomisimo.org/index.php)
-   Grammar (http://forums.tomisimo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=19)
-   -   Para or Por (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=4438)

tony July 02, 2009 10:39 AM

Para or Por
 
I need some basic guidelines in the usage of para and por.

Necesito unas directivas basicas del uso de para y por. Cuando se usa o dice para y cuando se usa o dice por? Gracias.

Please correct my first attempt at posting a question in Spanish (self study 2 months). Thanks.:thinking:

Fazor July 02, 2009 11:25 AM

StudySpanish.com tiene un pagina buena sobre el tema aquí.

Y un otra pagina buena está aquí. (About.com)

irmamar July 02, 2009 11:28 AM

Basically, you can use "por" as a cause, and "para" as a finality. I'll explain more detailed in Spanish, if you don't mind:

- Para
Destino: El mes que viene parto para Lisboa.
Propósito: Este regalo es para ti.
Objetivo: Estudia para ser abogado
Comparación: Hablas muy bien español, para ser inglés
Futuro: Tengo que estudiar esta lección para mañana

- Por:
Tiempo: Me han hecho un contrato por un mes
Intercambio: ¿Cuánto me paga por el coche?
A través: Iremos por la nueva autopista
Esfuerzo: Trabajó toda su vida por sus hijos
Averguación: ¿Sabes quién ha preguntado por ti?
Frecuencia: Voy al gimnasio dos días por semana
Motivo: Robaron por hambre
Modo de ejecución: Envíalo por correo aéreo
Lugar o fecha indeterminados: Su casa está por ahí. Estuvo aquí por un tiempo.

For instance, you can see the difference:

Yo voy para Madrid (= hacia Madrid)
Yo voy por Madrid (paseo por Madrid, estoy ahí)

I hope it'll be helpful :)

Fazor July 02, 2009 11:36 AM

One thing that always tripped me up is that I always wanted to use 'por' as a translation of the word 'for', because they sound so similar. But 'para' is used for that.

irmamar July 02, 2009 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fazor (Post 40848)
One thing that always tripped me up is that I always wanted to use 'por' as a translation of the word 'for', because they sound so similar. But 'para' is used for that.

Translation: 'para' se usa para eso. ;)

And a thought from mine: Para traducir 'for', puedes usar para y por. :) (a little poem)

Rusty July 02, 2009 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fazor (Post 40848)
One thing that always tripped me up is that I always wanted to use 'por' as a translation of the word 'for', because they sound so similar. But 'para' is used for that.

Not always.

Quote:

Originally Posted by irmamar (Post 40849)
Translation: 'para' se usa para eso. ;)

And a thought of mine: Para traducir 'for', puedes usar para y por. :) (a little poem)

As irmamar reminds us, 'por' is the correct translation of 'for' in some instances.
Gracias por la ayudas mnemotécnicas (memory aids), irmamar.

CrOtALiTo July 02, 2009 04:33 PM

I have other examples of the use of the word Para.

Para que veas.

Para que vas.


Para que te veas.

This are short examples, you can use into of the Spanish, I hope these examples can help you.

irmamar July 03, 2009 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 40876)
Not always.

As irmamar reminds us, 'por' is the correct translation of 'for' in some instances.
Gracias por la ayudas mnemotécnicas (memory aids), irmamar.

You're welcome :)

Me das las gracias por (cause) algo que sirve para (finality or purpose) algo. ;)

'Memory aids', I think once you told me, but I had forgotten. Thanks. :)

brute July 03, 2009 03:32 AM

mnemotécnicas

Is there a mnemonic to remember the spelling of this word?

irmamar July 03, 2009 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brute (Post 40926)
mnemotécnicas

Is there a mnemonic to remember the spelling of this word?

Yes, there is: following an alphabetical order, 'm' is before 'n'.

Hay soluciones mnemotécnicas para todo, sólo hay que buscarlas :D

chileno July 03, 2009 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brute (Post 40926)
mnemotécnicas

Is there a mnemonic to remember the spelling of this word?

Quote:

Originally Posted by irmamar (Post 40947)
Yes, there is: following an alphabetical order, 'm' is before 'n'.

Hay soluciones mnemotécnicas para todo, sólo hay que buscarlas :D

Also, m before p = lámpara

and

n before v = envío

I remember those since I was a kid, they stuck because I was in love with Mrs. Gloria. :o

She had been my teacher since Kindergarten.

Rusty July 03, 2009 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chileno (Post 40951)
Also, m before p = lámpara

and

n before v = envío

I remember those since I was a kid, they stuck because I was in love with Mrs. Gloria. :o

She had been my teacher since Kindergarten.

These memory aids won't make a lot of sense to new learners of Spanish unless they are also taught that the letter n is pronounced as an m before those consonants (and the letters b and m need to be included in the list).
Many a native speaker will misspell those words if they don't remember the memory aids your teacher taught you. :)

chileno July 04, 2009 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 40977)
These memory aids won't make a lot of sense to new learners of Spanish unless they are also taught that the letter n is pronounced as an m before those consonants (and the letters b and m need to be included in the list).
Many a native speaker will misspell those words if they don't remember the memory aids your teacher taught you. :)

Rusty, you lost me. When is the letter n pronounced as an m? Could you please give me an example? :thinking:

And yes I forgot about the combination m before b :)

Rusty July 04, 2009 10:10 AM

In many languages (although not in English, in most instances), the letter n is pronounced as if it were the letter m when it is followed by a labial consonant (i.e., b, m, p, and v). There is also a spelling convention, which is what you were stating, that the letter n is changed to an m before those consonants.

The spelling convention isn't always followed, like in the word inconveniente, but the pronunciation rule is. This word is pronounced as if an m appeared before the v.
Here are more examples:

Convencer is pronounced combencer.
Conmigo is pronounced commigo.
Enmascarar is pronounced emmascarar.
Sinvergüenza is pronounced simbergüenza.
Tan bien is pronounced exactly like the word también.
En piezas is pronounced exactly like the word empiezas.

CrOtALiTo July 04, 2009 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 41058)
In many languages (although not in English, in most instances), the letter n is pronounced as if it were the letter m when it is followed by a labial consonant (i.e., b, m, p, and v). There is also a spelling convention, which is what you were stating, that the letter n is changed to an m before those consonants.

The spelling convention isn't always followed, like in the word inconveniente, but the pronunciation rule is. This word is pronounced as if an m appeared before the v.
Here are more examples:

Convencer is pronounced combencer.
Conmigo is pronounced commigo.
Enmascarar is pronounced emmascarar.
Sinvergüenza is pronounced simbergüenza.
Tan bien is pronounced exactly like the word también.
En piezas is pronounced exactly like the word empiezas.

Your explain was very useful.

Thanks.

irmamar July 05, 2009 12:28 AM

I agree with Rusty. :)

Otro mnemotécnico útil sirve para saber colocar los pronombres átonos en la oración: semana < mes < trimestre

Se me ha caído la chaqueta (semana < mes) :good:
Me se ha caido la chaqueta :bad:

Se te ha ocurrido a ti (semana < trimestre) :good:
Te se ha ocurrido a ti :bad:

brute July 05, 2009 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 40977)
These memory aids won't make a lot of sense to new learners of Spanish unless they are also taught that the letter n is pronounced as an m before those consonants (and the letters b and m need to be included in the list).
Many a native speaker will misspell those words if they don't remember the memory aids your teacher taught you. :)

Misspell is a word which is often mispellt:bad: misspelt:bad: mispelt:bad:mispeld:bad:mispeled:bad:mispelld :bad:mispelld :bad:mispelled :bad:misspeld:bad: misspelld:bad:misspel:bad: ...........................!!!!!

chileno July 05, 2009 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 41058)
In many languages (although not in English, in most instances), the letter n is pronounced as if it were the letter m when it is followed by a labial consonant (i.e., b, m, p, and v). There is also a spelling convention, which is what you were stating, that the letter n is changed to an m before those consonants.

The spelling convention isn't always followed, like in the word inconveniente, but the pronunciation rule is. This word is pronounced as if an m appeared before the v.
Here are more examples:

Convencer is pronounced combencer.
Conmigo is pronounced commigo.
Enmascarar is pronounced emmascarar.
Sinvergüenza is pronounced simbergüenza.
Tan bien is pronounced exactly like the word también.
En piezas is pronounced exactly like the word empiezas.

Ok, now I got it.

Although some of the combinations, at least en Chile, are not used like that, due to not pronouncing the v correctly.

Sinvergüenza becomes sinbergüenza etc.

Let me add that this phenomena appears in the lower social stratus where education is scarce at best. :/

tacuba July 05, 2009 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irmamar (Post 41087)
I agree with Rusty. :)

Otro mnemotécnico útil sirve para saber colocar los pronombres átonos en la oración: semana < mes < trimestre

Thanks for the rule Irmamar. I learned it as Reflexive < Indirect < Direct or R.I.D.

irmamar July 06, 2009 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacuba (Post 41151)
Thanks for the rule Irmamar. I learned it as Reflexive < Indirect < Direct or R.I.D.

R.I.D? What is R.I.D?:thinking:

¡Soy tonta! Ya lo he pillado :D

Here4good March 19, 2010 11:30 AM

Fun video by some high school students trying to explain por y para in a rap!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd0dl...eature=related

xchic March 20, 2010 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here4good (Post 77147)
Fun video by some high school students trying to explain por y para in a rap!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd0dl...eature=related

Not as good as the Ser v Estar one , but I like it:D

wafflestomp May 17, 2010 11:40 PM

In the song "Por ti volaré" why do you use "por" rather than para? I was under the impression that when talking about doing something for somebody, you use "para" -- ie: "Èste ordenador es para ti"

irmamar May 18, 2010 12:21 AM

You are the cause: volaré por ti.

But you can say: hacer algo por alguien with two meanings:

1. I do something because of you:

Trabajo por ti, porque quiero ganar dinero para pagarte los estudios (cause).

2. I do something instead of you:

Hago el trabajo por ti (en tu lugar).

:)

chileno May 18, 2010 08:10 AM

Besides, that "volaré para ti"= "I will fly for you" also means "that I will show you how I fly." Right?

wafflestomp May 19, 2010 09:29 PM

Alright, I'm understanding it now. Thanks to the two of you guys :)

dvisto July 16, 2010 06:56 AM

The following chart shows some of the major uses of these two prepositions.

Uses for por:

Expressing movement along, through, around, by or about: Anduve por las calles de la ciudad. I walked through the streets of the city.

Denoting a time or duration when something occurs. Viajamos por tres semanas. We're traveling for three weeks.

Expressing the cause not the purpose) of an action: Me caí por la nieve. I fell down because of the snow.

Meaning per: Dos por ciento.Two percent.

Meaning supporting or in favor of: Trabajamos por derechos humanos. We work for human rights.

Introducing the agent of an action after a passive verb: Fue escrito por Bob Woodward. It was written by Bob Woodward.

Indicating means of transportation: Viajaré por avión. I will travel by plane.

Used in numerous expressions: Por ejemplo. For example. Por favor. Please.

Uses for para:

Meaning for the purpose of or in order to: Para bailar la bamba, necesita una poca de gracia. In order to dance the bamba you need a little grace.

With a noun or pronoun as object, meaning for the benefit of or directed to: Es para usted. It's for you.

Meaning to or in the direction of when referring to a specific place: Voy para Europa. I'm heading to Europe.

Meaning by or for when referring to a specific time: Necesito el regalo para mañana. I need the gift for tomorrow. Vamos a la casa de mi madre para el fin de semana. We're going to my mother's for the weekend.

irmamar July 19, 2010 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvisto (Post 88897)
The following chart shows some of the major uses of these two prepositions.

Uses for por:

Expressing movement along, through, around, by or about: Anduve por las calles de la ciudad. I walked through the streets of the city.

Denoting a time or duration when something occurs. Viajamos por tres semanas. We're traveling for three weeks.

It depends on the country. I'd say: "viajamos durante tres semanas".

Expressing the cause not the purpose) of an action: Me caí por la nieve. I fell down because of the snow.

Be careful. This sentence could mean that you fell on the snow. I'd say: "me caí a causa de la nieve" to avoid ambiguity.

Meaning per: Dos por ciento.Two percent.

Meaning supporting or in favor of: Trabajamos por los derechos humanos. We work for human rights.

Introducing the agent of an action after a passive verb: Fue escrito por Bob Woodward. It was written by Bob Woodward.

Indicating means of transportation: Viajaré por avión. I will travel by plane.

The same as the second sentence. I wouldn't say "viajar por avión", but "viajar en avión".

Used in numerous expressions: Por ejemplo. For example. Por favor. Please.

Uses for para:

Meaning for the purpose of or in order to: Para bailar la bamba, se necesita una poca de gracia. In order to dance the bamba you need a little grace.

With a noun or pronoun as object, meaning for the benefit of or directed to: Es para usted. It's for you.

Meaning to or in the direction of when referring to a specific place: Voy para Europa. I'm heading to Europe.

A o para.

Meaning by or for when referring to a specific time: Necesito el regalo para mañana. I need the gift for tomorrow. Vamos a la casa de mi madre para el fin de semana. We're going to my mother's for the weekend.

Vamos a casa de mi madre el fin de semana (sin para)/ vamos a pasar el fin de semana a casa de mi madre. ;)

AngelicaDeAlquezar July 19, 2010 08:15 AM

I mostly agree with Irma.

- I wouldn't use "por" instead of "durante".

- "Por avión" used to be a literal translation of French "par avion", to indicate that ordinary mail should be sent by plane, so sending something via air transport is the only case I can think of when some people would use "por avión" instead of "en avión".

- However, I have to disagree about the case of "me caí por la nieve".
"Por" can be actually used to give a reference about the place where something has happened, but not exactly the place:
· Me caí por el faro. (I fell somewhere nearby the lighthouse.)
· Tuvimos el accidente por Mérida. (We had the accident somewhere nearby Mérida.)
In these cases, "por" is not a cause, but a place around which something has happened. There is no immediate ambiguity in the meaning, because one wouldn't expect a lighthouse to be the cause of someone falling down, or a city the cause of someone having an accident.
In the case of the snow, I wouldn't find any ambigüity either, because falling somewhere around or nearby the snow would sound strange to me (as if it would be concentrated only in one spot).
We would say "me caí en la nieve" to say "I fell on the snow".


And by the way, here it's correct to say "voy a casa de mi madre para el fin de semana". Although speakers might not be fully aware of it, it's an ellipsis that's felt as saying "...para pasar el fin de semana".
Still, it's colloquial and the right expressions are those Irma suggested. :)

irmamar July 20, 2010 12:50 AM

Bueno, "caerse por" da un sentido de extensión, como si algo se desparramara: caerse por las escaleras, caerse las monedas por el suelo, etc. No diría "caer por el suelo" (una persona o ciertos objetos de un tamaño ya considerable; sí, sin embargo, unas monedas o pequeños objetos). También diría "caer por la nieve" porque vas resbalando y no caes en un punto fijo (si la nieve está helada, claro):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sTPFWnmvFI

:)

AngelicaDeAlquezar July 20, 2010 07:43 AM

Aaaah, vaya... Claro, si ruedas cuesta abajo sobre la nieve es otra cosa. Yo pensé más bien en una extensión plana. ;)
En ese caso estoy de acuerdo con la extensión de la explicación al respecto de "caer por". :)

Sancho Panther October 08, 2010 06:06 AM

'Para' and 'por' are probably the single most confusing aspect of Spanish grammar - I've been learnig Spanish for forty years, and I still occasionally get it wrong!

I remember reading many years ago that "Compré la casa para mi padre", meant that I paid for it myself (for him to live in); but "Compré la casa por mi padre" meant that I did all the work but he paid for it. I sought confirmation of this from mi señora (barcelonesa) and she said it was rubbish and each structure could nean either.

Far be it from me to contradict my wife but confidentially, I think she's wrong; what do you guys think?

poli October 08, 2010 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sancho Panther (Post 96558)
'Para' and 'por' are probably the single most confusing aspect of Spanish grammar - I've been learnig Spanish for forty years, and I still occasionally get it wrong!

I remember reading many years ago that "Compré la casa para mi padre", meant that I paid for it myself (for him to live in); but "Compré la casa por mi padre" meant that I did all the work but he paid for it. I sought confirmation of this from mi señora (barcelonesa) and she said it was rubbish and each structure could nean either.

Far be it from me to contradict my wife but confidentially, I think she's wrong; what do you guys think?

Por can mean by means of. So, compré una casa por mi papá can mean
that he was instrumental in the purchase. Other example: pago por
carta crédito means I'm paying with a credit card. Pago para una carta crédito means I'm paying to obtain a credit card.
I agree with you that por and para causes problems for us. I say it right
and then correct myself and get it wrong sometimes,

chileno October 08, 2010 07:49 AM

Also por means "because or as a result"

Sancho, I agree with you. :)

I cannot think of an instance in which "Compré esta casa para mi padre" could mean "Compré esta casa por mi padre"

irmamar October 08, 2010 11:58 AM

I could say: Compré esta casa por mi padre, porque él me aconsejó que la comprara (just an example). :)

chileno October 08, 2010 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irmamar (Post 96577)
I could say: Compré esta casa por mi padre, porque él me aconsejó que la comprara (just an example). :)

Right, because of him.

JPablo October 08, 2010 02:54 PM

Right. I agree with the answers above.

@Sancho Panzer, what is the exact question?

(What you explained above made sense to me, so it seems to me that tu señora maybe didn't quite get what you meant?)

(It is just a question, because, if I don't understand something that I think I understand and you tell me that "you are wrong" and tell me why, and I get it, then I don't have to wonder anymore. If you tell me "you are wrong" but don't give the reason, then, it is possible a misunderstanding could have occurred...)

Hey, "¡hablando se entiende la gente!"

Sancho Panther October 09, 2010 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPablo (Post 96605)
Right. I agree with the answers above.

@Sancho Panzer, what is the exact question?

(What you explained above made sense to me, so it seems to me that tu señora maybe didn't quite get what you meant?)

(It is just a question, because, if I don't understand something that I think I understand and you tell me that "you are wrong" and tell me why, and I get it, then I don't have to wonder anymore. If you tell me "you are wrong" but don't give the reason, then, it is possible a misunderstanding could have occurred...)

Hey, "¡hablando se entiende la gente!"

Oh, right!

JPablo October 09, 2010 07:30 PM

So... is this fully clarified for you?

ChilenoAlemanCanada November 06, 2010 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 41058)
In many languages (although not in English, in most instances), the letter n is pronounced as if it were the letter m when it is followed by a labial consonant (i.e., b, m, p, and v). There is also a spelling convention, which is what you were stating, that the letter n is changed to an m before those consonants.

The spelling convention isn't always followed, like in the word inconveniente, but the pronunciation rule is. This word is pronounced as if an m appeared before the v.
Here are more examples:

Convencer is pronounced combencer.
Conmigo is pronounced commigo.
Enmascarar is pronounced emmascarar.
Sinvergüenza is pronounced simbergüenza.
Tan bien is pronounced exactly like the word también.
En piezas is pronounced exactly like the word empiezas.

I dunno, I don't think that would apply to Latin American Spanish. Are you from Spain, by any chance?

Rusty November 06, 2010 03:16 PM

These pronunciations are commonly used in Latin America.

cameronpalte June 29, 2012 04:22 PM

Thanks for the help guys. Reading through this was interesting and helpful and helped me learn something new.

Haroonharry August 14, 2012 06:42 AM

Here is a really cool link for Por vs Para

http://www.colby.edu/~bknelson/SLC/por_para1.php

It actually has a paragraph in Spanish using por and para and it explains the use of para and por in context of the paragraph.

DocMolly December 20, 2012 07:58 AM

Siendo el invierno y los días festivos aquí en Minnesota...

¿Como se dice en español?:

"I am going to give Sophie a gift for Christmas."
Voy a darle a Sophie un regalo para la navidad.

"I took medicine for the cough."
Tomé medicina para la tos.

I alway use PARA in examples like these. Is that correct?

AngelicaDeAlquezar December 20, 2012 08:38 AM

Yes, it's correct in both sentences.

"Para" expresses a destination both literally and figuratively, so "para (la) Navidad" is right.

You will find some people who say (joking or not) that "medicina para la tos" should be "medicina contra la tos", because otherwise you'd be saying that the medication is meant to make your cough worse. However the significance of "medicina/medicamento" (some substance that relieves sickness) is enough to express what you mean. :)

DocMolly December 20, 2012 11:43 AM

Thanks again Angelica.

abuelito April 07, 2013 03:45 PM

Hola Tony:
Por and para both mean for, amoung other things. Learn one or two uses at a time and nunca, nunca nunca use para after gracias.
Para is used to indicate destination, purpose, use, or goal.
Por is used to indicate through, along, around, & by.

Siga este sendero para las montañas y entonces continue siguiéndolo por las montañas.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:23 PM.

Forum powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.