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-   -   Specific dialect q: "recordarser(?) : to awaken" (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=21877)

smalloy March 19, 2017 02:56 PM

Specific dialect q: "recordarser(?) : to awaken"
 
This is my first post, and an obscure question. Thank you in advance for any help!

I remember, years ago, reading an interview with Jorge Luis Borges in which he mentioned a word which in a regional Spanish dialect (probably Argentinian, but I'm not positive) meant "to awaken."

He mentioned that it was interesting that the word-- "recordarser," or something similar, I think-- literally translated, meant "to remember oneself."

I can't seem to find any evidence online of this word's existence-- is anyone here familiar with it, or something like it?

I know that "recordar" means "to remember," but am specifically looking for a similar word meaning "to awaken."

Thanks again.

Rusty March 19, 2017 04:10 PM

'recordarse' (no 'r' on the end) is a pronominal verb. It means 'be remembered' or 'be reminded'. I know of no case when it could mean 'to awaken', except in a literal sense that a memory is awakened due to it being remembered/reminded.
There is a non-pronominal form-recordar-that means 'remember/recall' or 'remind'.

For 'awaken', use 'despertar'. For 'become awake', use 'despertarse'.

AngelicaDeAlquezar March 19, 2017 04:26 PM

Saying "recordar" instead of "despertar" is an old colloquial use of the verb. I don't hear it anymore, but it was very often said by my grandfather's generation.
I've just been told that it's still used in some Mexican rural zones and in some other countries like El Salvador or Colombia. I don't know for sure where "recordar" is still said, but these are some examples of how I heard it when I was younger:

- Recordé/desperté a las seis de la mañana.
- Los niños recuerdan/despiertan temprano, también cuando no van a la escuela.
- Cuando recordamos/despertamos, ya era tarde.

JPablo March 19, 2017 08:04 PM

Diccionario de la Real Academia:
(intransitivo y poco usado)

5. intr. p. us. despertar (‖ dejar de dormir). U. t. c. prnl. (utilízase también como pronominal)

http://dle.rae.es/?id=VV3nlWy

This reminds me the following,

"Entre los poetas míos tiene Manrique un altar"..., is a verse by Machado, who considered Jorge Manrique one of the best, if not the best of all medieval poets.

His first lines (Manríquez poem) read,

Recuerde el alma dormida,
avive el seso y despierte
contemplando
cómo se pasa la vida,
cómo se viene la muerte
tan callando;
cuán presto se va el placer;
cómo después de acordado
da dolor;
cómo a nuestro parecer
cualquiera tiempo pasado
fue mejor.

The whole poem is well commented and explained here,
https://www.uv.es/ivorra/Literatura/Coplas.htm

Recuerde: Recobre la conciencia al despertar. Que despierten las almas que viven soñando y no son conscientes de la realidad.

Ejemplos actuales:

En algunos países latinoamericanos recordar significa “despertar”.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...despertar%22&*


Sí, claro, recordar es despertar. Nos despertamos niños, en otros lugares y en otras épocas y eso nos permite revivir, es decir vivir dos veces, o por lo menos imaginar que es así…

http://elmonolector.blogspot.com/201...l#.WM84PIErJaQ

Recordar es despertar y viceversa; por supuesto, en un nivel metafórico.

https://books.google.com/books?id=71...tar%22&f=false

Por eso los dioses conocen el pasado y el futuro y también por eso y casi siempre recordar es despertar, porque la amnesia impide el retorno al tiempo ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=vi...tar%22&f=false

Bueno, y si lo Googleas, ahí lo tienes:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...despertar%22&*

Saludos cordiales. :-)

aleCcowaN March 20, 2017 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smalloy (Post 165936)
I remember, years ago, reading an interview with Jorge Luis Borges in which he mentioned a word which in a regional Spanish dialect (probably Argentinian, but I'm not positive) meant "to awaken."

He mentioned that it was interesting that the word-- "recordarser," or something similar, I think-- literally translated, meant "to remember oneself."

Your memories seem a bit confusing.

The only word that rings a distant bell is "avivarse".

Tomisimo March 20, 2017 08:35 AM

As others have said, the word is recordarse.

Quote:

Jorge Luis Borges writes of the "unbearable lucidity of insomnia" (1998:98). He describes sleep as a state in which one is able to forget oneself. When one awakens, however, time, places, and people return - the self returns. One of the many words in Spanish for "to awaken" and which Borges regularly employs is recordarse, which translates literally to "remember oneself." In this sense, when one awakens, one remembers oneself; in the absence of sleep, the self never leaves, never forgets, and, thus, remains vigilant over itself and its memories.
From: A Reader in Medical Anthropology: Theoretical Trajectories, Emergent Realities page 533.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nDGSyaNRMUoC

aleCcowaN March 20, 2017 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomisimo (Post 165941)
As others have said, the word is recordarse.

Quote:

Jorge Luis Borges writes of the "unbearable lucidity of insomnia" (1998:98). He describes sleep as a state in which one is able to forget oneself. When one awakens, however, time, places, and people return - the self returns. One of the many words in Spanish for "to awaken" and which Borges regularly employs is recordarse, which translates literally to "remember oneself." In this sense, when one awakens, one remembers oneself; in the absence of sleep, the self never leaves, never forgets, and, thus, remains vigilant over itself and its memories.
From: A Reader in Medical Anthropology: Theoretical Trajectories, Emergent Realities page 533.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nDGSyaNRMUoC

Oh! that wonderful Anglo-Saxon imagination and BS artfulness!

Google: "No results found for +Borges +recordarse."
CORDE: texto "recordarse", autor "Borges" ---> "No existen casos para esta consulta."

No Borges writing about "the unbearable lucidity of insomnia" nor regular use of "recordarse".

The text comes from an interview by L.S. Dembo, held in English on November 21st 1969 in Madison Winsconsin. They're talking about "Funes, el Memorioso", and "the unbearable terribly lucidity of insomnia" are apparently words from Dembo Borges is taking in his reply: «The terribly lucidity of insomnia. And there's a common word in Argentine Spanish for awaken: recordarse, to remember oneself. When you're sleeping, you can't remember yourself -in fact, you're nobody, although you may be anybody in a dream. Then suddenly you wake up and "remember yourself"; you say "I am so-and-so; I'm staying in such-and-such a place; I'm living in such-and-such a year." But recordarse is used as a common word and I don't think anybody has worked out all its implications»

Don't try to use recordarse as synonym of awaken in Argentina, not even in Borgian circles, because nobody will understand you and they'll think you're mixed up with Spanish as a second language.

AngelicaDeAlquezar March 20, 2017 02:34 PM

In the interview, Borges does say that waking up is like remembering oneself.
Quote:

Pienso en una frase común: "recordarse", que es porque uno se olvidó de uno mismo y al despertarse se recuerda.
He may have heard it in another region or, if he's just using it as a metaphor, it coincides with the way the verb was (or is) used. In any case, it's most probably not the most common use of the word for him or for Argentine speakers, which is clear by now.

aleCcowaN March 20, 2017 03:24 PM

To be fair, this is the whole fragment

Quote:

-Por eso le preguntaba. Pensaba en Funes el memorioso.

-Ese cuento ... voy a contarle un detalle que quizás pueda interesarle. Yo padecía mucho de insomnio. Me acostaba y empezaba a imaginar. Me imaginaba la pieza, los libros en los estantes, los muebles, los patios. El jardín de la quinta de Adrogué, esto era en Adrogué. Imaginaba los eucaliptus, la verja, las diversas casas del pueblo, mi cuerpo tendido en la oscuridad. Y no podía dormir. De allí salió la idea de un individuo que tuviera una memoria infinita, que estuviera abrumado por su memoria, no pudiera olvidarse de nada y por consiguiente no pudiera dormirse. Pienso en una frase común: "recordarse", que es porque uno se olvidó de uno mismo y al despertarse se recuerda. Y ahora viene un detalle casi psicoanalítico: cuando yo escribí ese cuento se me acabó el insomnio. Como si hubiera encontrado un símbolo adecuado para el insomnio y me liberara de él mediante ese cuento.
-Como si escribir el cuento hubiera tenido una consecuencia terapéutica.

-Sí.
And, yes, Borges used dictionaries. To understand Borges you have to get first that he was writing in English. In "Pienso..." and "y ahora viene un detalle", the present tense used is the English one, not the Spanish one.

JPablo March 20, 2017 09:18 PM

For the record:

http://www.abc.es/cultura/libros/201...301311854.html

15. Recordar/despertar
En «La azarosa vida de las palabras» a las que mete el bisturí José Antonio Pascual el curioso lector comprobará que «recordar» es sinónimo de «despertar», y de ahí el comienzo de las Coplas a la muerte de su padre, de Jorge Manrique: «Recuerde el alma dormida,/ avive el seso y despierte». Ese «recordar» por despertar se oye hoy en algunos pueblos españoles y americanos, y está en Borges («Hubiera preferido recordarse con el sol ya bien alto»).


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