Difficult languages
 

Do you think some languages are more difficult to learn than others? Or do they all have their "sore areas"?

Mandarin is very difficult to learn. I quote someone else when I say 'everything is different.' The writing system, the 5 distinct tones you must master, and the vocabulary are all new.

Finnish is very difficult to learn. It has 8 noun cases (two more than Russian, four more than German). Usually, only Finnish babies can learn the language well. Another quote from someone else - 'endless noun cases.' The vocabulary is quite different from the rest of the 'European' languages, too.

I would like to learn more about these languages, still the same.

Want to know something funny? Mandarin has become part of the school curriculum in England. Can you imagine English children learning Chinese when they cannot even be bothered to learn European languages?

mandarin
 

My daughter is starting Mandarin in the fall for a three year pilot program. She will be in eighth grade. A teacher is coming from China for three years. I told her she has to teach me whatever she is learning.:)

Marsopa

It depends on what your native language is, or your other exposure to languages, but yes, some languages are harder to learn than others. It all depends on language features in your target language (the one you're learning) that don't exist in your L1 (your native language).

The examples of Finnish and Mandarin are valid for English speakers at least. English doesn't have a very extensive case system, while Finnish does, making it hard. English doesn't use tone to distinguish between words, while Mandarin does, making it hard.

Spanish differs from English mainly in three points: verb conjugations, subjunctive mood and gender. However, in general these differences are "easier" for an English speaker to learn than the tone and case of Mandarin and Finnish, among other differences in these languages.

Just my $0.02.

I started learning both German and French at the same time and although I'm quite proficient in French, my German is practically non-existent...But I'll learn, probably in the distant future...

Neat. I know a little bit of German, and almost nothing of French.

David, you are fluent in Spanish and English. That means, whether you realize it or not, that you know a lot of French. Of course, proper pronounciation can be confounding. You already know the grammar
a big percentage of the vocabulary.:thumbsup:

P.S. I think tonality used in Mandarin is rearing its head in English. Certainly tonality as used in English doesn't effect meaning as much as it does in the Far East The tonal valley-girl accent phenomenon has cought
on among young prosperous American women nationwide, and it appears to be replacing regional accents, but oddly less so among men. It's so sing-song that it practically sounds Mandarin.

That's encouraging Poli. If I learn the basics of pronunciation I could probably communicate at a basic level.

I have some basic knowledge of French. However, when I started a French language course last year, I discovered that I was getting the two languages sort of jumbled up(Spanish and French), possibly because of their many similarities. So I quit the course, at least until I gained a complete command of Spanish...:impatient::impatient::impatient:
In another thread started by Iris, http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=1380, most of us were of the opinion that it´s a good thing for kids to learn different languages at the same time (at a tender age)...
but what about the adults (well advanced in age...;)), how easy is it for us to learn two or more languages simultanously?

Well, there are 'only' 4 tones to master, and it's not THAT hard. Yes, learning the Hanzi can be a challenge, but it's also great fun when you get the hang of it. And yes, the vocab is totally different, but the grammar is just so straight-forward and at times easy, so that makes a lot better.

Depends on the languages. For example; French and Spanish. At the same time it'll confuse you. But for example Spanish and Turkish (like I do at the moment)? I think it's perfectly possible because the two languages are so completely different.

It's probably truth, but I don't know if, I'm learning English and chinese at same time it could be hard do it.

But, I think if the person endeavor a lot learning two languages, in any case the person will learn the languages.

I wasn't saying that it's not difficult. Of course it's best to concentrate on one language, but if you already have a strong base in one language, studying another language which is totally different won't cause much troubles.

Of course.

Ok, at least, now, I know I´m not completely thick in the head or too old.

The most difficult language for Native English speakers is Hungarian which is related to Finnish, however they cannot communicate with each other at all in their Native Language.

I don't think so, I believe what the language more difficult in learn would be russian.

I'm not sure, I know from my research that Hungarian is considered the most difficult, I think this is because of pronunciation rather than the letters themselves. Even though I speak very little Spanish my pronunciation of Spanish is much better than my Hungarian. I've been slowly learning Hungarian for just over 2 years ( my girlfriend is hungarian) and I've been learning Spanish for about 5 Months. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has or is learning Russian.

I find what both you and Crotalito say very interesting, and even though I have very little theoretical information about the subject, my practical knowledge, after teaching EFL for exactly half my life, and having been a student of foreign languages for even longer, is a bit wider. I love reading what linguists have to say on the topic of language acquisition, and I partly believe their findings, even if sometimes they are quite contradictory.
All the same, I think that when you speak about languages and humans you can never generalize. There are too many factors to take into account: ability, motivation, genetics, background, lifestyle, location,character...

But that's the beauty of it. Languages are full of unexpected surprises, and each and every learner has a unique experience (although there are, of course, common attributes when you consider, for example, a group of Spanish learners).

And (this one is for you, Sosia:D) here comes my egocentric moment: people say you learn a second foreign language through your mother tongue: I can assure you I have learned both French and the little bit of German I know through English.http://www.twcenter.net/forums/image...racter0280.gif (Sorry, David, I took the liberty of adding my little show-off, to prevent possible future attacks by my lovely forum friends...Wouldn't want to give any names...)

Hungarian and Russian are not related. As you pointed out, Finnish is a closer match. Finnish is a very hard language to learn, but according to some sources, Hungarian is even harder.

Russian uses the Cyrillic alphabet, while Hungarian uses an extended Roman alphabet.

Russian has 6 noun cases. Compare that to German (4) and Finnish (8). Hungarian has as many as 18 noun cases. For those who don't understand cases, it means that a noun has a different pronunciation (and spelling) depending on what part of speech it plays. There are 6 different ways to say 'park', 'book', and 'ball' in Russian, depending on what role the words play. There are a lot more ways to say these words in Hungarian.

So, I agree that Hungarian sounds like a difficult language to learn, and I have to believe what others have said about it - that it is one of the most difficult languages for an English speaker to learn.

I don't think the grammar of languages is the hardest to learn, as it simply requires lots of practice. What I think is hard is idioms and sayings, and alike, and to learn how real natives speak the language. I'm from Finland myself, so I know a lot of Finnish, and on some points it's very different from Danish, English or other languages. A funny thing, in my humble opinion, is that you say you're going into the toilet, and not on the toilet, when you're going for a pee (minä menen vessassa).

But it's true of course, the grammar is a factor. I have only briefly looked at Hungarian once, and I can't say if it's harder than Finnish or not. Personally do I think that some of the hardest languages to learn are Native American languages, or some other languages by indians (Mayan, etc.) They have a complex grammar-system, and many sentences have a bit of supernatural things in them, caused by their old religions, etc. Also, most of them are agglutinative languages, which can be quite confusing sometimes.

15.

You made me think that even though the grammar of English is quite simple, my students (most of them are Spanish, but not all) have lots of problems with idioms and prepositions and with the fact that, in their opinion, English is not logical at all.
They also have great trouble understanding. We use films, soaps, documentaries... quite often, and most of them (and they are advanced students - C1 more or less in the European Framework) feel lost without the subtitles, even the ones who have lived in England or the States for a year or more still have problems understanding 100 %, mainly because of the pronunciation and intonation .
You also mentioned culture and religion, and that is true of modern languages too. When we watch comedies there are many jokes I have to explain or that they try to guess together, unless I've given some explanations beforehand, because most of them lack the cultural background or don't know the pronunciation of a brand, who a famous person is...
P.S. Just an afterthought: here in Spain most films both on telly and at the cinema are still dubbed.Most of my Latin American students are quicker at listening because in their countries they watch O.V.s with subtitles.

I can only agree with that. I'm still facing lots of problems with idioms and prepositions. But reading a forum such as this one helps you learning it. Slowly you figure out where you use "on," "at," etc.

I heard once that there were 8 Finnish noun cases, and I believed what I heard. With your help, and looking on-line, I now know that there are 15. Thanks, ElDanés!

You're welcome. :)

I'm learning lots of things here too. And not only related to languages... I'm a tiny bit less scared of my computer now :D and I also have a lot of fun. Thanks, everybody. :)

I am 30 years old and wanted to learn chinese. Can you tell me what is the best way to learn it?

Please start your own thread in the other languages forum.

Wlecome Curabet.

It depends on the teacher and student; Some are taught 4 (like in Mainland China), while others are taught 5 (like in Taiwan). Where 5 tones is taught, they consider words like ma, and ba, and the end of questions and sentences (In other words, particles), to have a "dot" tone. Also, when a word is repeated twice it also has a "dot" tone.

Oh, and if you think Mandarin is hard because of tones, trying learning Cantonese. 6.

Grammar of Mandarin is actually relatively easy; relatively little conjugation compared to Indo-European languages, no cases, and very easy to modify words, making them adjectives, nouns, adverbs, etc. The hardest would probably be the writing system, which requires the memorization of every single character. Chinese is also slightly phonetic though. For more complex characters, there is the part called the "radical", which gives the basic idea or meaning. Then the other part can help with pronounciation.

For example, 铃. The left side is the "metal" radical, while the right side itself (令) would be pronounced "ling". This character is also pronounced the same way ("ling"), but it means "bell", as a bell is made out of metal.
There are also "top" radicals, like in the word 宇 (yu). The top is the "protect" radical (宀， it is not a radical by itself, but is derived from the word 保 [bao]). The bottom (于) is pronounced "yu". This word together is also pronounced in the same way, but together with 宙，it means universe. (宇宙)

I made a mistake in my post. 宀, I meant, is not a character in and of itself. It is a radical, though. Sorry.

Don't worry is normal when oneself does mistakes.

Common mistake for Spanish-speakers learning English; sometimes they mix up does and makes because they are both "hacer" en español.
You "make" mistakes, not do them.

Other languages do the same thing, French - faire, German - machen can both be translated as to do or to make!

Both make-do and work-job are difficult to learn for Spanish speakers. I think that it's the same with ser-estar for English speakers. I always mix them up.:impatient:

Sí, por la gente quien está estudiando el español 'para/por' es muy difícil, porque en inglés tenemos un único significado 'for' :banghead: Tambien, pienso que 'por' tiene más que 274739 significados:lol: me parece jeje

Pero finalmente creo que estoy empezando ententerlo

In English are there two meaning for the word Por is by and for any of the two words are acceptable for write in English, sometimes I struggled for decide which word I must to take in one text, but with the time I learnt that both words are acceptable and also meaning the same.

Estoy completamente de acuerdo - por y para son muy, muy difícil para comprender como usar para Anglohablantes (pues, para mi. No sé sobre otras personas). Por/para es mucho más difícil usar correctamente que ser/estar. Entendí como usar ser/estar muy rapidamente, pero hago errores algunas veces porque no estoy prestando atención. jeje.

Para mí no hay dudas entre por y para ;)

In a simply way, "por" expresses cause and "para", purpose:

Ha pasado por tu culpa.
Este libro está escrito por mí.

He traído este regalo para ti.
Aquí me tienes para lo que necesites.

Sometimes, they are interchangeable:

Hizo todo lo posible para / por aprobar el examen.
No sé por / para / hacia dónde tirar.

This is a very simple point of view but I hope it will be useful. :)

¡Muchísimas Gracias!
Voy a tratar recordar este consejo. Espero que me ayudará.
Una corrección pequeña. =]