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-   -   English accent (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=2824)

laepelba January 11, 2009 10:52 AM

English accent
 
I am brand new to learning Spanish. (It's fun!) I'm having a difficult time with some of the pronunciations. I am struggling with the r's and rr's in words like "perro" and "carro" and "verde" and so on, but I figure that's to be expected. I have found some great posts here on Tomísimo to help with that. (Thanks!)

My question is about accents. I would love to minimize my anglo-sounding accent when my Spanish gets more conversational. What are some of the things that (a) would hinder my being understood, and (b) would help me sound closer (on the spectrum) to a native speaker than to an anglo?

Thank you everyone for your input!

Rusty January 11, 2009 11:25 AM

The only advice given here in the past is to befriend native speakers and try to mimic their pronunciation. Listening to music in Spanish also helps a great deal. Search the forums for music to get some ideas on what's out there. If you get Spanish channels on cable/satellite/TV, watch them.

Jessica January 11, 2009 11:36 AM

I have LOTS of trouble with pronounciation! I am like you too! My writing in Spanish is OK, but my speaking is NOT ok.

laepelba January 11, 2009 11:40 AM

My writing in Spanish is not really okay (or else I would ask the questions in Spanish).... but I WANT to learn!

I have been trying to say "verde" and it just does NOT come out easily. I mean, I could say it like an English speaker with a hard "v" and sounding like "vair - day" ... but I KNOW that's not right.

Basically, I want to start GOOD pronunciation habits from the beginning. I don't want to have to correct things later....

Rusty January 11, 2009 11:53 AM

There is no American English 'r' in Spanish at all, just for the record. In fact, the sound we make for the letter is unique. It is not pronounced that way in any other language that I know of. So, try very hard to listen to it being pronounced correctly in Spanish and mimic the sound. Search the forums for how to pronounce it. The 'r' has two different pronunciations. The 'rr' is always trilled.

The letters 'v' and 'b' in Spanish are identical in sound. Say the American English 'b', but with less aspiration, for both consonants.

The vowel 'e' is pronounced like the 'e' in met, and is often phonetically spelled 'eh'. It is pronounced like the 'ei' in neighbor when it is the final vowel. So, the word verde has two different pronunciations for the 'e'. It looks like you understand this already, based on the way you phonetically spelled it above.

laepelba January 11, 2009 11:58 AM

Oh, you're right - it's NOT the "e's" that I am having trouble with. I know that the "v" is like a "b", but mind doesn't sound right. It's the "r" next to the "d" that has me thrown. I just can NOT get it. And I know I won't really learn that HERE (I'll have to work on that with my friends who speak Spanish. I mean, really, what 2-year-old in a Spanish speaking country can't say "verde"??)

But, back to my original question - what are the things that I ought to be very careful about so that I can build good habits??

Rusty January 11, 2009 01:30 PM

The trilled 'r' is very hard for a speaker of American English to learn. It took me a solid year to get it right. There are a few posts in the forums that describe tongue placement and air flow to help you learn.
It is the shortened trilled 'r' that precedes the 'd' (and other consonants).

The clipped 'r', when 'r' falls between vowels, can be learned in a couple of minutes. In American English, we have a consonant cluster 'tt'. It appears in words like better and pitter-patter. When these words are spoken quickly, as in normal conversation, you'll notice that there is no 't' sound in the words at all. What you are hearing is the clipped 'r' sound. It's closer to a 'd' than to a 't'. So, if you want to pronounce the Spanish word era, remember how 'better' is said in normal conversation. Repeat it several times, making sure you don't hear the 't' sound at all. While repeating it, drop the final 'r'. After several more repetitions, drop the 'b'. You are now correctly pronouncing the Spanish word era.

Planet hopper January 11, 2009 07:40 PM

:twocents:Right, let's see if I may help:

First thing you hear in an English speaker is that they speak too fast. Meaning Spanish stresses every single syllable, while English strikes stress once-twice in a sentence. Speak carefully, take your time. You won't sound limey.:lightning::basketball:

Vowels are very different, I think they are key. English simplifies vowels in unstressed syllables to the so-called schwa. Never do that in Spanish. Only five vowels, but pronounce them clearly and throughly. No pairs long-short, like sheep/ship.:pinkdaisies:

It is a good comparison for the single vibrant r (verde) to put it next to the American inter-vowel t (water, what a day). I agree with you, Rusty, it's no the same, but it is a good pedagogical start for students willing to practice, as it is the case. Similarities are more than differences, I think. If I'm wrong, well, foot in the mouth.:footinmouth:

The multiple vibrant r (rabo) is just a repeated variation, as if you imitate the sound of a motorbike.:violin:

Another consonat that variates is the t, which in English is slightly africate, at least in European English, while in Spanish it is purely dental.

Hope this helped,

PH

CrOtALiTo January 11, 2009 10:08 PM

I want give my opinion above this situation, firstly I can give you the welcome to the forums, I will introduce myself, now if you have trouble with the accents then it's normal. because, I like, you, I have trouble with some words but at English, then you must procure ask inside forums questions or doubts that you have above your learning, then if you can't speak the Spanish, you should practice or improve with people in chat rooms or website as here in this website, but each learning at a language is hardly difficult, if you have not habitual use of the language, you will delay much in your learning but, don't worry, because someday, you will learn each word at Spanish, for example, you have been asking above the use of the word or letter V, R, ect. Let me telling you what with the word V, you can say these simple words, Verde, veracidad, Vetar, Veterano, Vegetales, ect. And with the word R, you can say these words Rana, Raro, Raramente, ranura, ect. Then the I trying to tell you, that is you need practice more and more your Spanish in some place where you can be free of expression.

And I bid you welcome again.

Planet hopper January 12, 2009 12:40 AM

Here is some more help, this is a classic tongue-twister to practice multiple vibrant r

El perro de San Roque no tiene rabo porque Ramon Ramirez se lo ha cortado.

St Roque's dog has no tail because Mr. Ramon Ramirez cut it off. (poor dog)

Maybe you could burn an mp3 and attach it into a message so that we hear how you do it and advice better.

I wouldn't worry about the v phoneme. It is an ultra correction to pronounce it, 95% of the speakers pronounce it just like a b.

Cheers-Salu2

PH

laepelba January 12, 2009 03:53 PM

Thanks for the tongue twister. I'll work on it. Still frustrated with "verde". It's the flipped-sounding "r" into the soft "d" that's killing me. :) I'll eventually post a file with me saying it.

bmarquis124 January 12, 2009 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laepelba (Post 23668)
Thanks for the tongue twister. I'll work on it. Still frustrated with "verde". It's the flipped-sounding "r" into the soft "d" that's killing me. :) I'll eventually post a file with me saying it.

oooo I want to hear it.

CrOtALiTo January 12, 2009 09:29 PM

But Why do you are frustrated with the word Verde?, What has the word Verde?

Planet hopper January 13, 2009 03:06 AM

For practicing verde there is a fomous poem by Lorca:

Verde que te quiero verde
verde viento verde grana

Remember that the d in verde is pure dental, do not rub your tongue when you produce the sound, it's just a touch.

laepelba January 13, 2009 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrOtALiTo (Post 23676)
But Why do you are frustrated with the word Verde?, What has the word Verde?

Crotalito: the "r" next to the "d" is giving me difficulty in "verde".... I can't get my tongue from the "r" sound to the "d" sound.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planet hopper (Post 23681)
For practicing verde there is a fomous poem by Lorca:

Verde que te quiero verde
verde viento verde grana

Remember that the d in verde is pure dental, do not rub your tongue when you produce the sound, it's just a touch.

THANKS for that poem - I'll learn it when I also learn the tongue twister posted earlier. :) By the way - will you translate it for me? I'm not quite sure what it means....

Planet hopper January 14, 2009 02:18 AM

Here is an approximate translation:

O green, I love you green
Green like the wind, green branches
:pinkdaisies:

Very commonly sang as a flamenco song, often used to learn to play six-string guitar. The vocabulary is not far-fetched...It was composed in the late 20s-early 30s, within an impressionistic trend that did not give it a deep meaning.


Verde que te quiero verde, verde viento verdes ramas
el barco sobre la mar, el caballo en la montaña
verde, que yo te quiero verde...

Con la sombra en la cintura
ella sueña en su baranda
verdes ojos negro pelo
su cuerpo de fría plata,
verde, que yo te quiero verde.
ay sí sí
que yo te quiero verde ay ay ay
que yo te quiero verde.

Compadre quiero cambiar
mi caballo por su casa
mi montura por su espejo
mi cuchillo por su manta,verde
que yo te quiero verde, ay si si
que yo te quiero verde ay, ay, ay
que yo te quiero verde.

Compadre vengo sangrando
desde los puertos de Cabra
si yo pudiera, mocito,
este trato lo cerraba, verde
que yo te quiero verde ay sí sí

Compadre donde está dime,
donde está tu niña amarga
cuantas veces la esperé
cuantas veces la esperara, verde
que yo te quiero verde, ay si si
que yo te quiero verde ay, ay, ay
que yo te quiero verde.

Verde que te quiero verde, verde viento verdes ramas
el barco sobre la mar, el caballo en la montaña
verde, que yo te quiero verde...


laepelba January 14, 2009 02:58 AM

FABULOUS!!!!! :) Thank you!!

sosia January 14, 2009 07:31 AM

That was a good one
I give my "verde" song
"Ojos verdes", a popular "copla"-song. There are slightly different versions, if it's singed by a man or a woman.

OJOS VERDES (Rafael de León, Manuel Quiroga y Salvador Valverde )
(for woman)
Apoyá en el quicio de la mancebía,
miraba encenderse la noche de Mayo.
Pasaban los hombres y yo sonreía,
hasta que en mi puerta paraste el caballo.
Serrana me das candela
y yo te dije gaché.
Ay ven
y tómame mis labios
y yo fuego te daré.
Dejaste el caballo
y lumbre te dí
y fueron dos verdes luceros de Mayo tus ojos pa' mí.
Ojos verdes,
verdes como,
la albahaca.
Verdes como el trigo verde
y el verde, verde limón.
Ojos verdes, verdes
con brillo de faca
que se han clavaito en mi corazón.
Pa mí ya no hay soles,
lucero, ni luna,
No hay más que unos ojos que mi vida son.
Ojos verdes, verdes como
la albahaca.
Verdes como el trigo verde
y el verde, verde limón.
Vimos desde el cuarto despertar el día,
y sonar el alba en la torre la vela.
Dejaste mi brazo cuando amanecía
y en mi boca un gusto a menta y canela.
Serrana para un vestido yo te quiero regalar.
Yo te dije está cumplio,
no me tienes que dar ná.
Subiste al caballo
te fuiste de mí,
y nunca otra noche
mas bella de Mayo han vuelto a vivir.

OJOS VERDES
(for man)
APOYA EN EL QUICIO DE LA MANSEVIA
MIRABA ESCONDERSE LA NOCHE DE MAYO
PASABAN LOS HOMBRES , ELLA SONREIA
HASTA QUE EN SU PUERTA PARE MI CABALLO
SERRANA, ¿ME DAS CANDELA? Y ELLA ME DIJO, GACHE
VEN Y TOMALA EN MIS LABIOS QUE YO FUEGO TE DARE
BAJE DEL CABALLO, DE CERCA TE VI
Y FUERON DOS VERDES, LUCEROS DE MAYO TUS OJOS PA MI

OJOS VERDE, VERDES COMO LA ALBAHACA
VERDES COMO EL TRIGO VERDE Y EL VERDE, VERDE LIMON
OJOS VERDES, VERDES CON BRILLO DE FACA
QUE ESTAN CLAVAITOS EN MI CORAZON
PA MI YA NO HAY SOLES, LUCEROS NI LUNA
NO HAY MAS QUE UNOS OJOS QUE MI VIA SON
OJOS VERDES, VERDES COMO LA ALBAHACA

VIMOS DESDE EL CUARTO DESPUNTAR EL DIA
Y ANUNCIAR EL ALBA LA TORRE LA VEGA
DEJASTES MIS BRAZOS CUANDO AMANECIA
Y EN MI BOCA UN GUSTO A MENTA Y CANELA
SERRANA, PARA UN VESTIO YO TE QUIERO REGALAR
NO HACE FALTA, ESTAS CUMPLIO, NO ME TIENES QUE DAR NA
SUBI EN MI CABALLO, VOLANDO ME FUI
Y NUNCA OTRA NOCHE MAS BELLA DE MAYO HE VUELTO A VIVIR

I would try to translate it tomorrow..
Saludos :D

Planet hopper January 14, 2009 09:13 AM

Hey, guys, I am very happy you all liked it, it will make a nice Karaoke round. Let me serve the youtube link for 'Ojos verdes', with Sosia's permission, by Rocio Jurado and Pastora Vega. A bit more difficult to sing as karaoke, though.



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