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-   -   A río revuelto, ganancia de pescadores (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=12358)

aleCcowaN January 14, 2012 03:35 AM

A río revuelto, ganancia de pescadores
 
I'm looking for its English equivalent -which is not "fishing in troubled waters"-.

Our saying -become an idiom- implies that only outsiders have sure winnings when a civil war or turmoil arise, or any internal conflict in a family, company or group emerge.

Unlike the phrase in English, no risk or chance is associated with those "pescadores".

Perikles January 14, 2012 04:39 AM

I suspect there is no alternative to

The devil loves to fish in troubled waters

which is a quotation from John Trapp in his commentary on the bible. His quotations have infiltrated English to such an extent that an alternative is unlikely, though of course I could be wrong.

Glen January 14, 2012 06:08 PM

I have heard it as Every cloud has a silver lining but do not necessarily agree, since to me at least, it's a way of expressing how opportunistic people take advantage of others who have fallen on hard times. No corresponding English idiom comes to mind right away, but perhaps a Spanish one would be - correct me if I'm wrong - En tiempo de remolino, sube la basura.

chileno January 14, 2012 08:31 PM

The wise take advantage of turmoil.

Troubled waters, fisherman's gain.

Perikles January 15, 2012 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 120770)
I have heard it as Every cloud has a silver lining but do not necessarily agree, since to me at least, it's a way of expressing how opportunistic people take advantage of others who have fallen on hard times.

I find that a really odd interpretation, to be honest. It's generally understood that no matter how bad things are, they will get better.

aleCcowaN January 15, 2012 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perikles (Post 120745)
I suspect there is no alternative to

The devil loves to fish in troubled waters

which is a quotation from John Trapp in his commentary on the bible. His quotations have infiltrated English to such an extent that an alternative is unlikely, though of course I could be wrong.

Yes, thanks, that's about the meaning. I've seen "fishing in troubled waters" as a standalone idiom meaning "trying to get something from a conflict" which looks as making hay. The Spanish idiom tries to warn on the deleterious effects of intestine conflicts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 120770)
I have heard it as Every cloud has a silver lining but do not necessarily agree, since to me at least, it's a way of expressing how opportunistic people take advantage of others who have fallen on hard times. No corresponding English idiom comes to mind right away, but perhaps a Spanish one would be - correct me if I'm wrong - En tiempo de remolino, sube la basura.

I always regarded that idiom as Perikles told. I heard it first time in Paul Williams' render of "Lucky Old Sun", when I was a kid:

"Good Lord of mine
Can't you see I'm tired
Tears are in my eyes
Send down that cloud with a silver lining
Take me to paradise"

Later I learnt it was something similar to "it's an ill wind that blows nobody any good". But, that's the problem with idioms from one language to another: they seem to be standing on a different point of view and having different contexts in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chileno (Post 120774)
Troubled waters, fisherman's gain.

Would be that understood as a proverb? I googled it and find it to be a literal translation of the Spanish idiom. Even a page in Greek which title started with "Argentina" or a word derived from it (Αργεντινή).

chileno January 15, 2012 06:54 AM

Oh, you are looking for an equivalent proverb.

I don't think it is a proverb or recognized as such.

poli January 16, 2012 07:22 AM

It is true that not all idioms translate, although obviously many do.
A close one in English to the Argentinian idiom is: to the victors go the
spoils.:hmm:

The difference it that the victor may have faced danger as well.

:idea:The term fat cat refers to a person who profits from others' toil and
trouble. So you may hear something like: we lost our sons and daughters to the war
while that fat cat CEO of (fill in the blank) made millions in profit at our expense.

aleCcowaN January 17, 2012 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poli (Post 120800)
It is true that not all idioms translate, although obviously many do.
A close one in English to the Argentinian idiom is: to the victors go the
spoils.:hmm:

"Los despojos pertenecen al vencedor" -or more informally "el ganador se queda con el botín"- points to one of the outcomes of open confrontation. The idiom "a río revuelto, ganancia de pescadores" points that whether a civil war or a family feud, those who benefit are not those who strive the most but they are probably outsiders holding a comfortable position.

This is a general Spanish idiom. It's in many books available through Google books, including "Colección de refranes, adagios y locuciones proverbiales" by Antonio Jiménez, 1828, Spain. It's available as a free E-book.

poli January 17, 2012 06:34 AM

In that case the pescadores are clearly the English equivalents of fat cats. The whole phrase may not be commonly used but the circumstance of the pescador certainly is.

Here's a wiki article about the term:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_cat_(term)

further illustration
http://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/sen.../fat_cats.html

chileno January 17, 2012 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN (Post 120834)
"Los despojos pertenecen al vencedor" -or more informally "el ganador se queda con el botín"- points to one of the outcomes of open confrontation. The idiom "a río revuelto, ganancia de pescadores" points that whether a civil war or a family feud, those who benefit are not those who strive the most but they are probably outsiders holding a comfortable position.

This is a general Spanish idiom. It's in many books available through Google books, including "Colección de refranes, adagios y locuciones proverbiales" by Antonio Jiménez, 1828, Spain. It's available as a free E-book.

Like petty thieves that pickpocket in any kind of convoluted situation, like a street fight and prey on innocent onlookers.

aleCcowaN January 17, 2012 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poli (Post 120846)
In that case the pescadores are clearly the English equivalents of fat cats. The whole phrase may not be commonly used but the circumstance of the pescador certainly is.

Here's a wiki article about the term:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_cat_(term)

further illustration
http://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/sen.../fat_cats.html

It looks those fat cats hold specific positions in society, what makes me think more in terms of peces gordos (figuratively, big predatory fishes at the top of the food chain) or maybe it is a fat cat el que corta el bacalao (those with power to allow -or not- poor people to get their daily bread: el/la mandamás - los mandamases).

That idiom's pescadores are not specifically spotted or alluded there otherwise than as generic third parties who benefit from internal disturbance. They perfectly may be opportunistic petty criminals, like those mentioned by chileno:

Quote:

Originally Posted by chileno (Post 120847)
Like petty thieves that pickpocket in any kind of convoluted situation, like a street fight and prey on innocent onlookers.

or even those who exploit that divide et impera on an industrial scale, but it also includes circumstantial beneficiaries that are law abiding and morally oriented.

poli January 17, 2012 09:55 AM

Then, there is no matching idiom in English. I think a term that can be used is inadvertant beneficiary.

chileno January 17, 2012 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN (Post 120848)
It looks those fat cats hold specific positions in society, what makes me think more in terms of peces gordos (figuratively, big predatory fishes at the top of the food chain) or maybe it is a fat cat el que corta el bacalao (those with power to allow -or not- poor people to get their daily bread: el/la mandamás - los mandamases).

That idiom's pescadores are not specifically spotted or alluded there otherwise than as generic third parties who benefit from internal disturbance. They perfectly may be opportunistic petty criminals, like those mentioned by chileno:



or even those who exploit that divide et impera on an industrial scale, but it also includes circumstantial beneficiaries that are law abiding and morally oriented.

Oh no, those we call sharks, or even politics.


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