rr thingy
 

I wasn't blessed with the gift of being able to say rr. Is that a big factor when i need to speak spanish or will r do. Unless you are really good at explaining it (better than all the people I have asked offline) I don't think you will be able to teach me. So does it really matter in the long run?

Re: rr thingy
 

Good question.

The answer can go either way. Even if you have poor pronunciation, you will most likely be understood in Spanish. I've often told students that if they pronounce the vowels and diphthongs correctly, and everything else with an American accent, native Spanish speakers will understand them- even though they'll have a horrible English accent. If you pronounce the Spanish 'rr' like an English 'r', you will still be understood in most situations, since the context of what you are saying should help the listener understand what you're mispronouncing.

You also ask 'does it matter in the long run'? Answer: Yes. You need to try and keep trying to pronounce better and better. What use would it be to have a huge vocabulary, great listening comprehension, and still pronounce Spanish with a first or second year accent? I'd encourage you to keep trying and to not give up. Your accent will improve.

Having said the above, I think I can teach you how to pronounce the double or 'trilled' 'r'. As you point out, it would be easier to teach it in person, but I think I can explain it in enough detail for you to do it.

How to pronounce the 'RR'

This explanation is probably only useful to speakers of North American (US) English, since there are some noteable differences between how we pronounce some sounds here and in other areas of the world. Say the following two words out loud and notice the area on the roof of your mouth where your tongue hits the roof of your mouth.

David - Where did your tongue tap the roof of your mouth at the first "d"?
Battery - Where did your tongue tap the roof of your mouth at the "tt"? (Remember this is pronounce as in US English, with 3 syllables (also known as the North American Tap, if I remember right.). If you're from the UK, you probably pronounce 'battery' as 2 syllables and the 'tt' is a 't' sound. If so, just use the example 'David').

Where did your tongue touch your palate (roof of your mouth)? Take your tongue and touch your upper front teeth, now move your tongue back until you feel a slight ridge, just behind your upper front teeth. Even if you don't feel the ridge, that's the same place where your tongue hits when you pronounce a 'D' in English. Remember that spot- that is where you're going to pronounce the Spanish 'RR'.

Now, I'm going to ask you to make a 'car' sound- like when a child is playing with a car and wants to make it 'accelerate'. This is not the vrrrrrrooooom sound, it's the sound you make using the sweet spot on the roof of your mouth- the same spot you just discovered above. Another sound kids often make using the same area of the roof of your mouth is the machine gun sound. Try it and see if your tongue is flapping and hitting that ridge rapidly. Now, even if you weren't successful making the children's play noises, I'll walk you through the process. Place your tongue on the roof of your mouth, in the position to pronounce a 'd'. You're about to say 'David'- your tongue is pressed up against the roof of your mouth. Now only say the 'D' or 'Da' of David. What you just said is a perfect Spanish 'r' (single r). Now to say the double 'RR', your goal is to make the exact same sound, but repeat it 3 to 5 times in rapid succession. You can't pronounce the 3 to 5 times separately, instead increase the tension of you tongue and press it up a bit harder and force the air past it. In your mind, think that your going to say the letter 'D', but instead of saying it, press your tongue harder against the ridge and force the air out past the tip of your tongue and get your tongue to bounce/flap and hit repeatedly the roof of your mouth. If you can do that, it's a perfect Spanish 'RR'.

You can do it- Keep practicing. :)

One more thing and this is important. You might be having trouble getting your tongue to "flap" to get the repeating "RR" sound. Even if you still can't produce that sound, don't worry about it. For the time being, use the single 'r' sound (what in English is a 'D') instead of the English 'R'. Try saying the Spanish name 'Ricardo'. Now instead of using an English 'R' as the first letter, use an English 'D' and you'll sound much better. Something like this "Dee" "cad" "tho". For now just think of the Spanish 'r' as if it were an English 'd'. And that will improve your pronunciation.

-David

Whoah, I think that's the longest post I've ever seen!

No, seriously that's a good explaination. Gracias.

You're welcome :)

Sorry for posting it into the wrong section. This is the best advice I got so far, but it just comes out as a zzzzz or a dadadada or thhhhhhhhh. Am i doing something wrong?

Actually you didn't post it in the wrong section at all. In the last couple of days I've been rearranging the forums so that's why I moved your thread. I even moved some of my own threads.

As far as your pronunciation goes, you might not be pronouncing it as bad as you think. There are native speakers that pronounce the rolled R as djjjjjjj In fact, now that I think about it, I have another explanation for how to pronounce the rolled r. Say the word 'just' and isolate the first sound of that word. It's a J. Now stop and think about it- it's at the same place in your mouth where you say a D. Kind of like 'djjjj'. Anyway, now try saying the name "Ricardo". The first R is a rolled R, so instead of saying Ricardo with an America R, say: (as if it were English) JRicardo. Not J-Ricardo. Try to say the J and the R together almost as one sound. Run them together. Use the same sound as the first sound in "just". Say: Jricardo. It's not the same rolled R as your teacher will show you, but there are native speakers that pronounce it that way, and you won't sound bad.

Hope that made sense. If not I'll explain it some more! :D

gracias por la ayudar.
 

yo atinar tu consejo mucho acomedirse.
I have had a lot of trouble with pronouncing my "rr"'s and your advice helps. I have repeated myself in english because i'm not sure i said it right in spanish.
Gracias Nuevemente.

Glad to help with the pronunciation.

Since you mention that your Spanish might not be quite right, I'll give you some pointers.

yo atinar tu consejo mucho acomedirse.
Le atinaste con tu consejo! Gracias por acomedirte.

I'm not totally sure that's what you wanted to say... but figure out what I wrote and it'll help you keep learning.

BTW, does the 'P' in P. Oregon stand for Stumptown?

This is great...thank you!! Though my daughter is in the other room listening to me--"David...DUH..DUH...RRRRRR.." !!

I do believe that my toungue is to short and thick to make the "rr" sound. Ive been trying for a week now. I can make a sound like it with the back of my toungue, using the part of the tongue that touches the roof of your mouth while making the K sound, but I know that is wrong. Making the JR sound is easy enough at the begining of a word but is not very convincing at the end of a word.Ill keep trying but I dont believe the front of my tongue is going to flap.

RR
 

I am thinking along the lines of Fullbite. I recently had the operation for Sleep Apnea (UPPP) and they did something to my tounge that keeps it from falling back to my throat at night (and it makes swallowing a little different feeling).

Well because of my fat lazy tounge, I had been doing my RR more towards the back of my throat, like the other person said, Now since the operation, I am left with nothing to cheat with, hahah. I can't purr like a cat, growl like a dog, none of the ways I use to cheat work. The "J R" methods is working in the beggining of words. I can get 3 nice trill sounds out. But I can get that, RRRRRRRRRR sound that natives do for emphasis at the begginning of a word.

and the "JR" seems hard at the end of a word.

But Thanks this is a start. My spanish friends now laugh at me now, when i talk because they can see me stopping mid sentence when I get to a work with a RR in it, hahah.

But they understand, it's new people I am afraid to talk to now.

thanks

Encontré unos poemas para ayudarnos a pronunciar el RR

Erre con erre cigarro
Erre con erre barril
Rápido corren los carros
Los carros de ferrocarril

Y

El perro de San Roque no tiene rabo porque Ramón Rodríguez se lo ha cortado

Español

English

Aquí es mi consejo, para empezar, inhala una brizna grande, entonces exhala el aire rápidamente y con fuerte Ya el parte divertido Ahora al exhala así, sube la lengua lentamente hasta que empiece vibrar Felicidades lo haces:balloons: Practica mucho, pero recuerda que tengas que exhalar rápidamente (y con fuerte) al empezar, entonces empieza exhalar más normal. Pronto lo pondrás hacer lentamente y sin esfuerza

Here is my advice, to start inhale a large breathe, then exhale quickly and strongly While exhaling like that slowly move your tongue up to the roof of your mouth until it starts to vibrate Now you have done it! Practice it alot, but don't forget to exhale strongly and quickly when beginning. Slowly slow down your exhaling and soon you will be able to do it very easy

Suerrrrrrrte

Gracias por las instrución pero tengo una problema.

I am literally tongue tied. I have ankyloglossia - my frenulum forces my tongue to stay close to the bottom of my mouth. I cannot stick my tongue out. My trilled rr's sound like l's and I really have to force the sound of an r - when I speak it, it is hard to tell the different between pero and perro.

What can I do to make it sound more authentic?

Some Spanish speaker people have this problem as well. They usually pronounce a soft r or a French r. There's no problem if you can't say a strong r, everybody will understand you :)

Thank you.

What is a "French r"?

It sounds a bit as a /g/ in the Spanish word "gato" or the English word "go", not exactly, of course; it's more guttural and a bit vibrant. Haven't you ever heard "mon amour" in French? ;)

I have - I had a French girlfriend once. "mon amour" gave me goosebumps.

goosebumps? :confused: ¿Escalofríos? ¿O te ponía la piel de gallina?

me ponía la piel de gallina. :wicked::kiss:

Ok, thanks. That's interesting ;)

To me it is a soft gargling sound;)

Oh! I can kind of do that!
Thank you. :thumbsup:

RR
 

I know this post is very old, but I have a useful tip. Saying the word "ladder" several times in a row can help to achieve the trill of the rr's.

I hope this is helpful to someone.

Reply to Thread
 

I just came upon this interesting thread, and have read it all the way through. I read a lot of good advice here that I hadn't thought of before. I'd like to share with you how I overcame my inability to say the Spanish r. To do that, I have to thank my neighbor and his motorcycle. Almost every evening that he was a neighbor, he fine-tuned his motorcycle. What a racket! After a while, in frustration from the noise, I began to mimic the sound that I was hearing just to keep my cool and entertain myself at the same time. The sound that I made was: "rrrrumm, rrrrumm, rrrrumm." I trilled my tongue against my palate like the sound of that revving 2-cylinder motorcycle engine. When it came time to overcome my inability to trill the Spanish r, I remembered how that sound of the motorcycle was much like what I needed. So, now, instead of trying to trill the Spanish r, I trill the air-only sound of that motorcycle engine. When I'm saying Ricardo, for instance, the ear hears "r" but I'm not saying "r." The only actual letters of the alphabet that I'm speaking are i(e), c(k), a, d, and o. So, for me, there is no "r" in the "spoken" Spanish language when I'm trilling the Spanish r. There is just the fluttering of air that sounds like rr or rrrrrr to the ears. Gracias. :)

Eso es tan divertido :)

He aprendido de este hilo. Gracias.

Reply to thread
 

@Feliz: As far as I can tell, the only thing that loud pipes do is annoy those who have to listen to them... :)

Interesting that you have discovered another use for them... the RR thingy... :)

Dale

Well, if you want to have some "audio" on this "rr" thing, you can listen to Carlos (Spanish) and David (who, while shows a bit of his American accent, does the "r" and "rr" correctly.)

(Quiéreme/borra el dolor/no quiero llorar/regresa a mí...)



(Hope this helps!) (Otherwise, just enjoy the music!) ;) :)

I still don't have it down, but I've managed to do it a couple of times (I just started practicing this morning!). Adding a very quick D sound sort of helps with getting the hang of it. Instead of saying "practice" try "pdactice." (I wouldn't rely on that though.)

Mastering or even learning a foreign language as an adult takes considerable effort. It is not just a walk in the park. I practised rolling that double r so much that my Venezuelan friend told me that I was double rolling even the single rs. How can a learner avoid practising or rehearsing an incorrect pronunciation is something I would really like to know? Thankful for any assistance.

The audio from you tube would no doubt have provided excellent practice. Unfortunately, it is blocked because of copyright restrictions in Trinidad, West Indies. Effort appreciated though JPablo. Any other suggestion for the Caribbean enthusiasts?

If I may. Another good way to practice the "rr" sound is to make the sound a person makes when they feel very cold. The word is "burr". But if you exaggerate the word you will roll the r's with your tongue more easily, like "burrrrr..."

Francisco Gabilondo Soler was a fantastic Mexican writer of songs for children. He's better known as "Cri Crí, el Grillo Cantor" ("cri-crí" imitates the sound of crickets, as he is known as "the Singing Cricket".)

Here's a little song for practicing "rr" sound in Spanish: http://www.cri-cri.net/Canciones/corochicharras.html
(Sorry, the spelling in the page is not perfect)

"Mp3" button plays the song.

Have fun! :)

Makes me glad that I'm Scottish
 

Yes that's true. Being Scottish puts you at an advantage in the rr
department:thumbsup:

¡Escocia! ¡Escocia! ¡Escocia! ¡Ra!¡Ra!¡Ra! (Just to cheer things up even further!) :D

For US English native speakers, the word "arroz" may be a good way of getting the rr ball (or the tongue) rolling (so to speak).

Also, maybe this point has been made, but the rr sound is used with the rr itself, and also with a single r when it's the first letter in the word.

A friend of mine suffered from that problem. Being a teenager, he wouldn't ask for a 'cigarro' (cigarrete) but for the more colloquial 'pitillo' instead, just to avoid people joking and imitating him. So I wonder if they develop a vocabulary where those rr words are absent.

In Spain it's well known that many foreigners wouldn't pronounce the rr properly. We are used to it and we understand them. However, when speaking Spanish, your english r sounds much better than the French r. A French friend who has been living for many years (at least 10) in Spain can't pronounce the rr yet.

What do you think of the Costa Rican r?

Yeah, I am one of those people who simply can't do the RR. I've tried and tried and tried and the closest I can come is the French R, and even it is unreliable when it comes to my ability to do it.

I think it's interesting that you say the English R sounds better than the French R. Why is that? Because with a French R there at least is a roll, even if it sounds a little different. (To me, they sound very similar.) But with an English R, there is no roll.

I want to make sure I am understood. I'd also prefer to not sound ridiculous. Would you suggest that I pronounce RR words--as well as words that begin with R--simply like a hard English R instead of attempting to roll it French-style?

I remember talking once to a Guatemalan Spanish about the word "rey." I pronounced it simply like the English word "ray," which he seemed to find quite unacceptable, ha ha.

I also am concerned about how to make the differentiation between words like caro/carro and pero/perro.

Some people love to hear your American English accent, much like we easily detect and love to hear all kinds of accents. When you speak Spanish, since it isn't your native tongue, you'll have an accent. You can work extremely hard to erase it, sounding more like a native speaker, but your word choices may give you away.
If you simply can't roll your 'r', you may want to adopt another sound. Your listeners will dismiss it away as your particular accent. "Don't worry, be happy." - Bobby McFerrin

What kind of sound would you suggest adopting?

BTW, I have always wondered if anyone out there appreciates an American accent. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that they do.

Also, how often is coche actually used? I used to use it instead of carro just to avoid the RR, but I had a native speaker once basically tell me that the word is rarely actually used in conversation.

Coche is used all the time in Spain. In Latin America, use carro.

I should have said it's a personal opinion. A French person saying a sentence with lots of RR would sound as gggg...ggg ...ggggg. I'd be under the impression that he/she can't breath properly. Nothing to see with the 'light, soft and sweet'' English R (that are the adjectives that come to me mind when comparing with the French R:))


You won't sound ridiculous and you'll be understood. I'd forgot about the French-style.

Some people find fault with everything.

Context. Bob Marley.:):)

Anybody pointed out that trilling R is difficult enough to defeat a certain percentage of native speakers? It isn't all about accent.

The r in Spanish is produced without the incorporation of the alveolar ridge. The r should always be in the front of the mouth. It doesn't necessarily roll, and in many cases, is more like a flap. A truly rolled r is regional, and can be heard in
Barranquilla as well a other places. By the way, rolled r's are frequently used in Great Britain.

The fidgety bairn :love:

Thanks! What a beautiful voice, and the English dialect sounds unique to me.

Some regional accents pronounce "r" sounds differently. For example, in Puerto Rico and some places in the Caribbean, many speakers tend to pronounce "l" instead of "r" [Puelto Lico, señol...].
Some Chileans and other South Americans pronounce it more like the American "r".
But most speakers tend to use "r" and "rr" in a mostly standard way. :)
I wouldn't say it's a matter of difficulty; it's probably more about the influence of local indigenous languages.


Oh, nice! http://forums.tomisimo.org/images/smilies/corazon.gif

Regarding how Puerto Ricans pronounce Puerto Rico, I mostly have heard /puel-to xi-ko/; "r" before a consonant pronounced like 'l', and 'rr' pronounced like French or Brazilian Portuguese 'r', English 'h', or Spanish 'j'.

You're right. I've also heard many speakers pronouncing "hard r" almost gutturally. :)