Present perfect subjunctive

[dhmkhkk]

Hi guys,

I've recently started learning Spanish and I'm having real troubles understanding the subjunctive mood. I know the theory about the verbs of wish, hope etc., but in the sentence like below it makes no sense to me at all:

Os agradesco mucho que hayáis venido hasta aquí para verme.

Where is conjecture/wish/uncertainty? People came to see a guy, it is a fact. Why subjunctive here? Would it be wrong to say "Os agradesco mucho que hacéis venido hasta aquí para verme."?

Thanks in advance for the explanation.

[Rusty]

Os agradezco

Here, the speaker is expressing a feeling or a sentiment. This triggers the usage of the subjunctive mood.

[dhmkhkk]

Oh, thank you

So, it would be completely incorrect to use the present perfect tense? Would it sound ungrammatical to you?

[Rusty]

It would not be correct to use the indicative mood in this case.

Agradecer is a 'Wish' verb, one of six classes of verbs that trigger the use of the subjunctive mood; a discussion of the WEIRDO verbs can be found here (locate the 'Words and Phrases that Trigger the Subjunctive or Indicative' subheading on their page and click on each of the six links, beginning with 'Wishes'). You can find more sites by doing this search: Spanish WEIRDO agradecer

[dhmkhkk]

Thanks Rusty, I did exactly that. I see the logic of using subjunctive, it's just that aome words which can be considered as "wish" or "emotion" for me sound certain and I would have used indicative mood, and for some words in indicative mood I would use subjunctive, since I do not consider them cetrain.

For example, in the article you sent me they say that the verb "creer" is a verb used to talk about knowledge, hence indicative should be used. But for me it sounds a lot like the speaker is uncertain, yet you should be using indicative. That's why the whole indicative/subjunctive is very vague to me.

[Rusty]

You probably also read that just because something's true or certain, it doesn't mean that the speaker feels that way about it. The whole key is understanding the speaker's point of view (how the speaker feels).
But, usually, the WEIRDO verbs elicit the use of the subjunctive mood; and the SPOCK verbs, the indicative.

[dhmkhkk]

Ok, I think I get the idea... but then how about the following example I've seen in a movie:

"Supongo que sabéis que vuestra madre se opuso a que me viera con ninguna de vosotras"

"Supongo" is a guess, obviously. He is not certain if what he is about to say is true. Yet here "sabéis" is used and not sepáis. Could you please explain why?

[poli]

Supongo que generally is not followed by the subjunctive. Conversely no supongo que takes the subjunctive.

[dhmkhkk]

How should I react properly... Ah, I know.

[poli]

Castilian is a comparatively modern language. If I understand the facts correctly, it was first put on paper by linguists who knew what they were doing about 500 years ago. For that reason, it's fairly logical, but not always. In the case of subjunctive phrase rules, sometimes it pays to memorize them rather than search for reasons. Direct and indirect object pronouns rules are also a hard to fathom.