Ask a Question

(Create a thread)
Go Back   Spanish language learning forums > Spanish & English Languages > Grammar


Para or Por

 

This is the place for questions about conjugations, verb tenses, adverbs, adjectives, word order, syntax and other grammar questions for English or Spanish.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old July 03, 2009, 08:32 AM
chileno's Avatar
chileno chileno is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Las Vegas, USA
Posts: 7,863
Native Language: Castellano
chileno is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by brute View Post
mnemotécnicas

Is there a mnemonic to remember the spelling of this word?
Quote:
Originally Posted by irmamar View Post
Yes, there is: following an alphabetical order, 'm' is before 'n'.

Hay soluciones mnemotécnicas para todo, sólo hay que buscarlas
Also, m before p = lámpara

and

n before v = envío

I remember those since I was a kid, they stuck because I was in love with Mrs. Gloria.

She had been my teacher since Kindergarten.
Reply With Quote
   
Get rid of these ads by registering for a free Tomísimo account.
  #12  
Old July 03, 2009, 10:23 AM
Rusty's Avatar
Rusty Rusty is offline
Señor Speedy
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 11,299
Native Language: American English
Rusty has a spectacular aura aboutRusty has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by chileno View Post
Also, m before p = lámpara

and

n before v = envío

I remember those since I was a kid, they stuck because I was in love with Mrs. Gloria.

She had been my teacher since Kindergarten.
These memory aids won't make a lot of sense to new learners of Spanish unless they are also taught that the letter n is pronounced as an m before those consonants (and the letters b and m need to be included in the list).
Many a native speaker will misspell those words if they don't remember the memory aids your teacher taught you.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old July 04, 2009, 08:50 AM
chileno's Avatar
chileno chileno is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Las Vegas, USA
Posts: 7,863
Native Language: Castellano
chileno is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
These memory aids won't make a lot of sense to new learners of Spanish unless they are also taught that the letter n is pronounced as an m before those consonants (and the letters b and m need to be included in the list).
Many a native speaker will misspell those words if they don't remember the memory aids your teacher taught you.
Rusty, you lost me. When is the letter n pronounced as an m? Could you please give me an example?

And yes I forgot about the combination m before b
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old July 04, 2009, 10:10 AM
Rusty's Avatar
Rusty Rusty is offline
Señor Speedy
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 11,299
Native Language: American English
Rusty has a spectacular aura aboutRusty has a spectacular aura about
In many languages (although not in English, in most instances), the letter n is pronounced as if it were the letter m when it is followed by a labial consonant (i.e., b, m, p, and v). There is also a spelling convention, which is what you were stating, that the letter n is changed to an m before those consonants.

The spelling convention isn't always followed, like in the word inconveniente, but the pronunciation rule is. This word is pronounced as if an m appeared before the v.
Here are more examples:

Convencer is pronounced combencer.
Conmigo is pronounced commigo.
Enmascarar is pronounced emmascarar.
Sinvergüenza is pronounced simbergüenza.
Tan bien is pronounced exactly like the word también.
En piezas is pronounced exactly like the word empiezas.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old July 04, 2009, 10:33 PM
CrOtALiTo's Avatar
CrOtALiTo CrOtALiTo is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mérida, Yucatán
Posts: 11,686
Native Language: I can understand Spanish and English
CrOtALiTo is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
In many languages (although not in English, in most instances), the letter n is pronounced as if it were the letter m when it is followed by a labial consonant (i.e., b, m, p, and v). There is also a spelling convention, which is what you were stating, that the letter n is changed to an m before those consonants.

The spelling convention isn't always followed, like in the word inconveniente, but the pronunciation rule is. This word is pronounced as if an m appeared before the v.
Here are more examples:

Convencer is pronounced combencer.
Conmigo is pronounced commigo.
Enmascarar is pronounced emmascarar.
Sinvergüenza is pronounced simbergüenza.
Tan bien is pronounced exactly like the word también.
En piezas is pronounced exactly like the word empiezas.
Your explain was very useful.

Thanks.
__________________
We are building the most important dare for my life and my family feature now we are installing new services in telecoms.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old July 05, 2009, 12:28 AM
irmamar's Avatar
irmamar irmamar is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,071
Native Language: Español
irmamar is on a distinguished road
I agree with Rusty.

Otro mnemotécnico útil sirve para saber colocar los pronombres átonos en la oración: semana < mes < trimestre

Se me ha caído la chaqueta (semana < mes)
Me se ha caido la chaqueta

Se te ha ocurrido a ti (semana < trimestre)
Te se ha ocurrido a ti

Last edited by irmamar; July 05, 2009 at 12:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old July 05, 2009, 06:51 AM
brute's Avatar
brute brute is offline
Emerald
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: en el norte de Inglaterra
Posts: 526
Native Language: British English
brute is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
These memory aids won't make a lot of sense to new learners of Spanish unless they are also taught that the letter n is pronounced as an m before those consonants (and the letters b and m need to be included in the list).
Many a native speaker will misspell those words if they don't remember the memory aids your teacher taught you.
Misspell is a word which is often mispellt misspelt mispeltmispeldmispeledmispelld mispelld mispelled misspeld misspelldmisspel ...........................!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old July 05, 2009, 07:50 AM
chileno's Avatar
chileno chileno is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Las Vegas, USA
Posts: 7,863
Native Language: Castellano
chileno is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
In many languages (although not in English, in most instances), the letter n is pronounced as if it were the letter m when it is followed by a labial consonant (i.e., b, m, p, and v). There is also a spelling convention, which is what you were stating, that the letter n is changed to an m before those consonants.

The spelling convention isn't always followed, like in the word inconveniente, but the pronunciation rule is. This word is pronounced as if an m appeared before the v.
Here are more examples:

Convencer is pronounced combencer.
Conmigo is pronounced commigo.
Enmascarar is pronounced emmascarar.
Sinvergüenza is pronounced simbergüenza.
Tan bien is pronounced exactly like the word también.
En piezas is pronounced exactly like the word empiezas.
Ok, now I got it.

Although some of the combinations, at least en Chile, are not used like that, due to not pronouncing the v correctly.

Sinvergüenza becomes sinbergüenza etc.

Let me add that this phenomena appears in the lower social stratus where education is scarce at best. :/
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old July 05, 2009, 10:38 PM
tacuba's Avatar
tacuba tacuba is offline
Pearl
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Ajijic, Jalisco, MX
Posts: 309
Native Language: English (USA)
tacuba is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by irmamar View Post
I agree with Rusty.

Otro mnemotécnico útil sirve para saber colocar los pronombres átonos en la oración: semana < mes < trimestre
Thanks for the rule Irmamar. I learned it as Reflexive < Indirect < Direct or R.I.D.
__________________
I would be grateful if you would correct my errors.
Estaría agradecido si corrigiera
mis errores.

Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old July 06, 2009, 12:32 AM
irmamar's Avatar
irmamar irmamar is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,071
Native Language: Español
irmamar is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacuba View Post
Thanks for the rule Irmamar. I learned it as Reflexive < Indirect < Direct or R.I.D.
R.I.D? What is R.I.D?

¡Soy tonta! Ya lo he pillado
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
por vs para, pronoun order, pronouns, r.i.d., vocab comparison, vs

 

Link to this thread
URL: 
HTML Link: 
BB Code: 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Site Rules

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Para todo mal, mezcal; Para todo bien, también Tomisimo Culture 14 July 24, 2009 09:08 PM
Por siempre / para siempre Tomisimo Vocabulary 4 July 30, 2008 09:32 PM
Help - Vistas por ultima vez corriendo por el pasillo dani87 Vocabulary 5 March 11, 2008 02:57 PM
Para vs Por bleitzow Grammar 7 January 30, 2008 05:40 AM
por and para fullbite Grammar 2 July 07, 2007 01:47 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:20 AM.

Forum powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

X