Catalan Independence

[ROBINDESBOIS]

And some other European countries , lets look at france, britanny, Normandy, Pays basque français, etc... italy , The UK, belgium etcc

[Sancho Panther]

I'm not convinced that Catalán independence would necessarily lead to a rush to independence in other country's regions - most are content with the degree of autonomy the presently have anyway; also each country's governments would probably resist total independence too vigorously for that to happen!

[ROBINDESBOIS]

I guess you have a point there. Let' s wait and see. Anyway this is a topic that really exasperates me. Independentist people have an idea and nobody will change their mind . It' s better just to ignore them or take drastic measures.

[poli]

It could start a precedent which seems dangerous to me. As you know, a couple of centuries ago Europe had many nation states in Germany and Italy in particular. It was messy. The only positive thing about it under current laws is whether countries divide or not, they will still be members of the EU. Division of countries like Spain or France or Italy will require the strengthening of the EU (USA style) to prevent the bloody clashes of past centuries.

[ROBINDESBOIS]

I think that in those other countries the linguistic situation is different, in Spain the different languages are used as a weapon, like if that would make them different from the rest of Spain. Spain is a country composed of different regions that took shape and continue evolving throughout the history, some regions were divided into small autonomus communities. We all form the project of Spain, but the apple of the discord is the language from my point of view. When they say they are not Spanish, they mean that nobody is Spanish then. Last night I saw a debate on TV , the most independent politician in that region was asked a bunch of questions, he never answered the questions, his answers were all the same,, that they had the right to decide, and there was sth that shocked me he wanted to become independent and in turn to keep the Spanish nationality because the Spanish constitution didn' t have any mechanisms to discard them of being Spanish, they say they are not Spanish, and they want to keep the Spanish nationality. Come on give me a break.

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by poli

The only positive thing about it under current laws is whether countries divide or not, they will still be members of the EU.

If a region breaks away from an EU member, it ceases to be part of the EU. It could apply to join, but the countries which are most concerned about regions breaking away (the UK, France, Spain) would veto it.

[poli]

Originally Posted by pjt33

If a region breaks away from an EU member, it ceases to be part of the EU. It could apply to join, but the countries which are most concerned about regions breaking away (the UK, France, Spain) would veto it.

Then that would be disastrous. Those separatists must be crazy. If they remain under a federation, then it's conceivable--foolish but conceivable.
If they're knocked out of the federation, no good will come of it.

[Sancho Panther]

De acuerdo - ¡tienes razón!

I spent all September staying with the wife's aunt on the costa near Vendrell, one of the days was the Catalán national day, this involved a 'human chain' many kilometres long.

The aunt's elderly friends - a couple across the road participated. A day or two later I told them that the President of the Generalitat had said if they secured independence they be wouldn't be able to increase employment nor reduce taxes, nor increase welfare payments etc.

They said "Oh we don't understand politics and that, we just like dancing, singing and waving flags in the street"!

I mean for God's sake!

[explorator]

Very bad examples, from the point of view of history "Victus" is the product of thirty years of education on separatist values at the Catalonian Public Schooling System. The author, Albert Sánchez Piñol, parts from the assumption that Spain never existed as a whole. This is the main thesis the Nationalist-Separatist parties have been injecting into the Catalonian students by using all the tools the 1978's Constitution Autonomic System gave to the regional governments.
This thesis has been refused so many times by so many serious studies that even Oriol Junqueras, the President of the main separatist party at Catalonia ERC (Catalonian Lefty Republican Party), has recognized that the reason to want an independent Catalonia has no need of a previous independence feeling or history, but the actual fact of just have ended to desire being Spanish anymore.
About the "España invertebrada", written by the Spanish philosopher José Ortega y Gasset, the reason of its failure rests in the common 98's generation intellectuals mistake: taking the name of Castile as a perfect synonymous of Spain. There are lots of doctoral thesis who refuse this work, nowadays Ortega's essay is very out-dated.
My own opinion is simpler:
Until the Nineteenth century, the Spaniards considered themselves as the pride of the western culture, nevertheless, as they traveled abroad they experienced the negative opinion the foreigners had about Spain and they used to come back home with a luggage of pessimism about our history.
The Romanticism and the "Volkgeist" aesthetical styles , improved the local prides as a replacement of the old "Spanish Imperial" one.
In the case of the Basque Country and Catalonia, the weak economy of the nineteenth Spain, placed there, the most part of its small amount of resources (never forget that along this nineteenth century we did lose all our American territories and suffered the brutal invasion from the French and British army's), in order to take advantage of their ports and geographical proximity whit the French border.
This fact had two consequences: first the life standards there became to be better than those of the other parts of Spain, second, as the Basque and Catalonian people compared themselves with the humble "maketos" or "txarnegos", as they called (and still today call) to the people from the rest of Spain who arrived to work as proletarians at their factories, a feeling of superiority started to raise.
The twentieth century, brought some political, economical and social crisis, a civil war and the general's Franco's dictatorship. During the period of illegalization of the political parties, as all of them had the same enemy, a climate of solidarity among their members was produced. Even if their theoretical and practical aims were as contradictory as reaching the rupture of Spain, the non separatist parties eased the separatist ones their way to the institutions once the democratic system was reinstituted after the dictator's death.

After their arrival to the autonomous regional institutions, the separatist parties, showed a moderated and ready to collaborate discourse to the Spanish Parliament parties, by the price of getting the most administrative and political competences in their territories, they provided them at Madrid Chamber, the parliamentary support they needed to keep themselves in the power.

As a result today, the central government of Spain has no possibility to make accomplish its laws at Catalonia and the Basque Country. In fact the separatist parties complaint about the taxes, by saying "Spain steals us" but the regional governement institutions under their control, are the only power to enforce the Spanish tax law in Catalonia, the Basque Country and Navarra , and any other legal regulation into their territories. In my opinion they 've already got an independence "de facto".

About the possibility of triumph of a secessionist referendum, I think that it probably will result in a secession, because thirty years fostering the feeling of contempt against the Spanish culture and the use of the vernacular languages as a barrier are very strong advantages. Advantages that they also have in the psycological field, as they are fighting for the dream (true or false) of an "independent Catalonian paradise" while the loyalist efforts are just aimed to keep the current "status quo".

On the other hand, facts as the inclusion of the sixteen year old boys and girls as voters, and even the illegal immigrants, sugest some lack of seriousness about the referendum.
In other words, if they don't get the independence soon, it will be only because their politicians really don't wish it.

[Sancho Panther]

Prime Minister Rajoy has stated that if they (the Generalitat) try to continue with the proposed referendum he will prevent it by legal measures.

He has little option really, but you can bet your life that that will provoke the extremists further - up to and including terrorism I forsee.

Despite the failure of ETA to achieve anything. Who was it who said "Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them?".