Ask a Question

(Create a thread)
Go Back   Spanish language learning forums > Spanish & English Languages > Vocabulary


Past participles in Spanish as a noun in English

 

Ask about definitions or translations for Spanish or English words.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old March 11, 2017, 12:00 PM
Perikles's Avatar
Perikles Perikles is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Tenerife
Posts: 4,814
Native Language: Inglés
Perikles is on a distinguished road
Past participles in Spanish as a noun in English

I have come across a few past participles where I would expect an infinitive, in names like

pastillas de encendido

Annoyingly, I can't remember any others, but I have heard several. Is there a definitive list?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old March 11, 2017, 12:15 PM
JPablo's Avatar
JPablo JPablo is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,579
Native Language: Spanish (Castilian, peninsular)
JPablo is on a distinguished road
Maybe there is one.

I don't know.

Oxford gives many examples,

Para un mejor acabado, aplica dos manos de pintura.

https://es.oxforddictionaries.com/tr...nglish/acabado

https://es.oxforddictionaries.com/tr...dido?locale=en

But the translation would be a noun, (like "ignition) not really an infinitive.

Am I missing something?

At any rate, I hope I give some lead.

Good to "see" you around!

¡Buen finde!
__________________
Lo propio de la verdad es que se basta a sí misma, aquel que la posee no intenta convencer a nadie.
"An enemy is somebody who flatters you. A friend is somebody who criticizes the living daylights out of you."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old March 12, 2017, 01:53 AM
Perikles's Avatar
Perikles Perikles is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Tenerife
Posts: 4,814
Native Language: Inglés
Perikles is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPablo View Post

But the translation would be a noun, (like "ignition) not really an infinitive.

Am I missing something?
In the example I cite, I would have expected "encender" not "encendido" which is why I mentioned the infinitive. The equivalent English has a variety of different forms, for example "for lighting a fire" (present participle) or "for the lighting of a fire" (gerund).

I just wondered whether there is some kind of rule which explains why a past participle is used which appears to be totally illogical.

I think I'm right in saying that Ancient Greek would have either a future infinitive or a future participle, both of which convey an intention that something will happen. This is logical, and it bothers me when it is not.

Last edited by Perikles; March 12, 2017 at 01:57 AM. Reason: Afterthought
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old March 12, 2017, 07:55 AM
aleCcowaN's Avatar
aleCcowaN aleCcowaN is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 3,127
Native Language: Castellano
aleCcowaN is on a distinguished road
What's the "logical" problem here?

a la salida, abone lo consumido
estamos orgullosos de lo logrado
cuando se vaya, deje el tablero en posición de apagado
el automóvil tiene encendido electrónico
quién me quita lo bailado
ésta es la lista de todo lo gastado
eso délo por sabido
no hay que vivir en el pasado
lo engañaron porque es un confiado
__________________
[gone]
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old March 13, 2017, 02:24 AM
Perikles's Avatar
Perikles Perikles is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Tenerife
Posts: 4,814
Native Language: Inglés
Perikles is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
What's the "logical" problem here?

a la salida, abone lo consumido
estamos orgullosos de lo logrado
cuando se vaya, deje el tablero en posición de apagado
el automóvil tiene encendido electrónico
quién me quita lo bailado
ésta es la lista de todo lo gastado
eso délo por sabido
no hay que vivir en el pasado
lo engañaron porque es un confiado
Quite simple - all the examples you give are perfect participles and they all represent something in the past. No problem there. But using the pp for something in the future is illogical to me. As my example of pastillas de encendido.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old March 13, 2017, 04:09 AM
aleCcowaN's Avatar
aleCcowaN aleCcowaN is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 3,127
Native Language: Castellano
aleCcowaN is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
Quite simple - all the examples you give are perfect participles and they all represent something in the past. No problem there. But using the pp for something in the future is illogical to me. As my example of pastillas de encendido.
Which is the difference between "pastillas de encendido", "posición de apagado" and "encendido electrónico" in a vehicle which burns "destilado de petróleo"? I don't see participles, and even less "the past". I only see nouns derived from verbs that somewhat are still in need of being understood within the context of actions, pretty much like it is done by using -ente or -ante (analogue to English -ing), like in "aguas surgentes".
__________________
[gone]
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old March 13, 2017, 02:29 PM
AngelicaDeAlquezar's Avatar
AngelicaDeAlquezar AngelicaDeAlquezar is offline
Obsidiana
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Mexico City
Posts: 9,062
Native Language: Mexican Spanish
AngelicaDeAlquezar is on a distinguished road
I don't know if there is a professional linguistic explanation for that --I haven't found it, but the use of what verb form is used in these cases corresponds to what they were related to from the start.
Your examples point out rightly that these nouns are related to an activity, but I think the case of "pastilla de encendido" is different, because the idea of "encendido" (similar to Alec's examples) already existed before those "pastillas" were sold, so I guess that is why their name is associated to the past participle instead of the action of turning the car on. They could have been called "pastillas de encender" or "pastillas encendedoras", but I think they wouldn't have been immediately associated with the parts of a car involved in the process of "encendido".
__________________
Ain't it wonderful to be alive when the Rock'n'Roll plays...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old March 14, 2017, 08:37 AM
Perikles's Avatar
Perikles Perikles is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Tenerife
Posts: 4,814
Native Language: Inglés
Perikles is on a distinguished road
I think I must make more of an effort to make a list - I can't remember any others at present. Maybe I can then see a pattern (although I doubt it).
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old March 14, 2017, 08:51 AM
poli's Avatar
poli poli is offline
rule 1: gravity
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In and around New York
Posts: 7,827
Native Language: English
poli will become famous soon enoughpoli will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
I have come across a few past participles where I would expect an infinitive, in names like

pastillas de encendido

Annoyingly, I can't remember any others, but I have heard several. Is there a definitive list?
I think the noun is implied. The noun being wood or some other combustible. The original idea is pastillas de madera encendida (pardon me if charcoal is composed of something other than charred wood)
Una jarra de encurtidos en lugar de una jarra de pepinos encurtidos. Here, we have an example that corresponds to English. A jar of pickled cucumbers is often called a jar of pickles, at least in the USA. Instead of
jar of pickleds as used in Spanish, English converts the past participle into the noun pickles. Tostados and toasts (we would never used toasteds) is another example. Both tostados and toasts imply toasted breads/panes tostados.

In Spanish, often the past participle is an adjective that becomes a noun when the noun is implied. I can't think of a case where this occurs in English.

I don't know if I'm missing the point here, but the use of the past participle as a noun when the noun is implied is commonplace in Spanish. I remember a classic movie called "Los Olvidados" . The title was translated "The Forgotten Ones."
I just remembered that there are cases in English where the Spanish practice is used. There's a famous play called "A Moon for the Misbegotten". Other examples: the disenfranchised, the unemployed, the uneducated. It's much less commonly used in English, but it exists.
__________________
Me ayuda si corrige mis errores. Gracias.

Last edited by poli; March 14, 2017 at 02:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old March 14, 2017, 03:53 PM
aleCcowaN's Avatar
aleCcowaN aleCcowaN is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 3,127
Native Language: Castellano
aleCcowaN is on a distinguished road
Think of visar.

Tráigame el sello de visar (bring me the stamp for visaing)
Tráigame el sello de visado (bring me the passport with the visa stamped)
__________________
[gone]
Reply With Quote
Reply

 

Link to this thread
URL: 
HTML Link: 
BB Code: 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Site Rules

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Past participles sonama Grammar 2 July 30, 2016 06:35 PM
Spanish past and imperfect Nimzii Practice & Homework 0 May 31, 2016 01:03 PM
When to use a definite article before a proper noun in Spanish? cb4 Grammar 1 July 19, 2014 12:39 PM
Been/Gotten then the past participle in Spanish wafflestomp Grammar 5 June 11, 2010 03:12 AM
Gerunds vs. Participles in Spanish satchrocks Grammar 6 June 16, 2009 06:07 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:15 AM.

Forum powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

X