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Past participles in Spanish as a noun in English

 

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  #11  
Old March 14, 2017, 08:37 AM
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I think I must make more of an effort to make a list - I can't remember any others at present. Maybe I can then see a pattern (although I doubt it).
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  #12  
Old March 14, 2017, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
I have come across a few past participles where I would expect an infinitive, in names like

pastillas de encendido

Annoyingly, I can't remember any others, but I have heard several. Is there a definitive list?
I think the noun is implied. The noun being wood or some other combustible. The original idea is pastillas de madera encendida (pardon me if charcoal is composed of something other than charred wood)
Una jarra de encurtidos en lugar de una jarra de pepinos encurtidos. Here, we have an example that corresponds to English. A jar of pickled cucumbers is often called a jar of pickles, at least in the USA. Instead of
jar of pickleds as used in Spanish, English converts the past participle into the noun pickles. Tostados and toasts (we would never used toasteds) is another example. Both tostados and toasts imply toasted breads/panes tostados.

In Spanish, often the past participle is an adjective that becomes a noun when the noun is implied. I can't think of a case where this occurs in English.

I don't know if I'm missing the point here, but the use of the past participle as a noun when the noun is implied is commonplace in Spanish. I remember a classic movie called "Los Olvidados" . The title was translated "The Forgotten Ones."
I just remembered that there are cases in English where the Spanish practice is used. There's a famous play called "A Moon for the Misbegotten". Other examples: the disenfranchised, the unemployed, the uneducated. It's much less commonly used in English, but it exists.
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Last edited by poli; March 14, 2017 at 02:12 PM.
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  #13  
Old March 14, 2017, 03:53 PM
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Think of visar.

Tráigame el sello de visar (bring me the stamp for visaing)
Tráigame el sello de visado (bring me the passport with the visa stamped)
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  #14  
Old March 15, 2017, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
I think the noun is implied. The noun being wood or some other combustible. The original idea is pastillas de madera encendida (pardon me if charcoal is composed of something other than charred wood)
Pastillas de encendido are firelighters, not charcoal. The key ingredient is short-chain hydrocarbons.

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Originally Posted by poli View Post
Una jarra de encurtidos en lugar de una jarra de pepinos encurtidos. Here, we have an example that corresponds to English. A jar of pickled cucumbers is often called a jar of pickles, at least in the USA. Instead of
jar of pickleds as used in Spanish, English converts the past participle into the noun pickles. Tostados and toasts (we would never used toasteds) is another example. Both tostados and toasts imply toasted breads/panes tostados.
Interesting: I wouldn't use *toasts either unless talking about speeches made with a glass in hand. For me toast (bread) is uncountable.

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Originally Posted by poli View Post
In Spanish, often the past participle is an adjective that becomes a noun when the noun is implied. I can't think of a case where this occurs in English.

I don't know if I'm missing the point here, but the use of the past participle as a noun when the noun is implied is commonplace in Spanish. I remember a classic movie called "Los Olvidados" . The title was translated "The Forgotten Ones."
I just remembered that there are cases in English where the Spanish practice is used. There's a famous play called "A Moon for the Misbegotten". Other examples: the disenfranchised, the unemployed, the uneducated. It's much less commonly used in English, but it exists.
The oppressed was the first example I thought of. Interesting that all our examples so far are negative.

I think it is missing the point, though. The original point, as I understood it, wasn't about adjectives which are utcs but about using a past participle (encendido) to describe a future intention (tablets of have-been-set-on-fire vs tablets of will-set-on-fire).
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Old March 15, 2017, 04:55 AM
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By "pastillas de encendido", were you talking of barbecue fire starter cubes? Oh, my! That's an aberration of the language, and an aberration of the barbecue (needing more than one match to lit a fire).

"Pastillas de encendido" are a part of the "sistema de encendido" in a motor vehicle using fuel and explosion started by spark. The other ones are "pastillas para encender", no matter what they say and use in a lot of places. They are the same nitwits who speak of "modistos" and "industria alimenticia" everywhere and now and then drop a "producto alimentario". They are hopelessly lost (I always wondered if the "industria alimenticia" provides a lot of iron, "mi primo, el tenisto" may need it )
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  #16  
Old March 15, 2017, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
By "pastillas de encendido", were you talking of barbecue fire starter cubes? Oh, my! That's an aberration of the language, and an aberration of the barbecue (needing more than one match to lit a fire).

"Pastillas de encendido" are a part of the "sistema de encendido" in a motor vehicle using fuel and explosion started by spark. The other ones are "pastillas para encender", no matter what they say and use in a lot of places.
Yes, we have a small stove which burns wood, and I use one of these cubes to start the fire (for wood, you only need one - for barbecue charcoal, you need many more). The packet clearly says "pastillas de encendido" which made no sense to me.

The packet also has the warning in several languages: Atención: Sólido inflamable. What a surprise
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  #17  
Old March 15, 2017, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
The packet clearly says "pastillas de encendido" which made no sense to me.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
The packet also has the warning in several languages: Atención: Sólido inflamable. What a surprise
It goes along the line with the microwave oven warning not to dry your pet in it, or the Superman costume advising not to try to fly while wearing it. They simply won't leave Darwin to do his job.
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  #18  
Old March 15, 2017, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
Yes, we have a small stove which burns wood, and I use one of these cubes to start the fire (for wood, you only need one - for barbecue charcoal, you need many more). The packet clearly says "pastillas de encendido" which made no sense to me.

The packet also has the warning in several languages: Atención: Sólido inflamable. What a surprise
Dicccionario de la Real Academia:

Encendido
3. m. Acción y efecto de encender. El encendido de las luces, del fuego.

When we talk about "acción" y "efecto" de "encender", of course, we are talking about what "verbs" are all about, but also "nouns", as "efecto" would be a result. Whether in the past, the present or the future.

Those "pastillas", are able to perform the "action" of "encender", in order to create the "effect" of something burning.

Maybe I have not delved too deeply on all the posts of this thread, but to me (being a Spaniard), I still don't see what is not making sense...

Maybe the answer to this conundrum is the "efecto" part of the definition...
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  #19  
Old March 15, 2017, 09:14 PM
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Interesting: I wouldn't use *toasts either unless talking about speeches made with a glass in hand. For me toast (bread) is uncountable.

Toasts are cracker-like toasted bread sold in packages. I think an older term is rusk or hardtack.

By the way the word for spark coil or ignition coil in Spanish is bobina de encendido.
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  #20  
Old March 16, 2017, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPablo View Post
Dicccionario de la Real Academia:

Encendido
3. m. Acción y efecto de encender. El encendido de las luces, del fuego.

When we talk about "acción" y "efecto" de "encender", of course, we are talking about what "verbs" are all about, but also "nouns", as "efecto" would be a result. Whether in the past, the present or the future.

Those "pastillas", are able to perform the "action" of "encender", in order to create the "effect" of something burning.

Maybe I have not delved too deeply on all the posts of this thread, but to me (being a Spaniard), I still don't see what is not making sense...
I find it illogical that the past participle is used for a result which could be in the past, present or future. I can't help comparing it to Greek which would have a future infinitive to express something which will happen in the future. It is no good telling me it is simply a noun - to me pastillas de encendido reads as cubes of lit and not cubes for lighting. It is interesting that I have trouble explaining why I see a difficulty here.
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