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Ellos and Ellas

 

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  #1  
Old December 18, 2016, 10:15 PM
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Ellos and Ellas

I am using Rosetta Stone to start learning Spanish. I am understanding that Ellos and Ellas both mean "they".

When I have a group of boys, I say: Ellos Comen. When there is a group of girls, I say: Ellas Comen.

I am wondering why, when I have a group of boys, and girls, I use Ellos? I'm assuming that I just use masculine when there is a mix of boys, and girls. I would never use Ellas Comen, if there were boys, and girls, in the group.

If there are boys, and girls, in the group, then I use Ellos Comen.
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  #2  
Old December 18, 2016, 11:26 PM
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You assume correctly, according to the current published standards of the RAE.

"Ellos" and "ellas" most often refer to people or to those classes of animals whose biological sex is generally relevant, such as pets or most farm animals. They are also occasionally used to refer to groups of animals whose biological sex is generally irrelevant, or to plants, non-living things, or ideas and concepts. Whenever biological sex is irrelevant, the grammatical gender of the nouns that name the animals or things in the group determines whether one uses "ellos" or "ellas".

"Ellas" refers only to groups that contain only people of female gender, animals of female sex, or plants or non-living things that are named by nouns that are grammatically feminine. "Ellos" refers to any other type of group.

When "ellos" refers to a group of people or animals, by default the group is of mixed genders/sexes, unless the context has already established that the group is exclusively male.

The same is true for the masculine plural form of most masculine singular nouns that refer specifically to people of male gender or animals of male sex; the plural noun by default refers to a group of mixed genders/sexes, unless context has already established that the group is exclusively male.

There are a few exceptions to this pattern; there are a few types of animal for which the feminine plural noun is the mixed group. Most of them are farm animals for which the female is of the species is generally more important to people. For example, if you see cattle in a field, one calls the group "las vacas", even though there may be some male animals out there; "los toros" refers only to bulls. Similarly, "las gallinas" can refer to any group of chickens, but "los gallos" refers only to roosters.

Last edited by wrholt; December 18, 2016 at 11:34 PM.
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  #3  
Old December 19, 2016, 07:44 AM
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I am only just starting the first lesson, but that's what I was understanding so far. It helps, because I was trying to figure out why most things I've encountered so far, were un gato, un perro, but then there was una manzana. I didn't understand why it wasn't un manzana.

I also noticed Los niños beben when there was a girl in the group.

The cow example was helpful. I'm sure I'll run into something like that soon. I just started, so I'm not even at the point where I start forming sentences yet.

I'm going to keep going with Rosetta Stone for a while, and when I get to a point where I can form some sentences, I am going to start using other methods as well. I have some flash cards, and some kids books. I have a few Dr. Seuss books in Spanish. I can't read them yet, but I can pick out a few things here and there.

I guess that's the method to follow. That's how I learned English.

Thanks.

Last edited by Depilego; December 19, 2016 at 07:49 AM.
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Old December 19, 2016, 10:30 AM
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It will all make sense little by little.
Feminine and masculine are always expressed in Spanish. This is reflected in articles and adjectives.
"Un"/"una" are indefinite articles for masculine and feminine respectively.

- Un toro (a bull)
- Una vaca (a cow)
- Un aguacate (an avocado)
- Una cebolla (an onion)
- Una casa (a house)
- Un edificio (a building)
- Un amigo (a friend -male)
- Una amiga (a friend -female)
- Un maestro (a teacher -male)
- Una maestra (a teacher -female)
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Old December 19, 2016, 10:51 AM
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One of the first things I noticed when I started my first lesson, is that (so far) a word was never by itself. In English, words are by themselves. For example:


 English  Spanish  Spanish (incorrect?) 
 Girl  Una Niña  Niña 
 Boy  El Niño  Niño 
 Apple  Una Manzana  Manzana 

Then, Google Translator says El Niño is Chico, but Una Niña is Niña.

Anyway, I'm starting the next lesson today. So, hopefully, some things will clear up soon. So far it hasn't been that bad. It looks like Spanish is pretty close to English.
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Old December 19, 2016, 11:07 AM
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This is for teaching purposes only. It's for the students to memorize the word together with its gender.

By the way, "el"/"la" are the definite articles, so it makes sense that one is translated and the other one isn't.
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Last edited by AngelicaDeAlquezar; April 04, 2017 at 10:25 PM.
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  #7  
Old December 19, 2016, 11:12 AM
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Classifying noun types by using a gender-masculine or feminine-is a known pitfall for students, especially because students then think they need to assign gender-male and female-to a noun.
It helps to know that so-called gender is nothing more than a designation of the noun's type. Spanish has two noun types, which happen to be called 'masculine' and 'feminine', but could just as well be called type A or type B.
If the student links 'masculine' or 'feminine' type to a noun, instead of trying to link a gender, male or female drops out of the equation.

la corbata (type: 'feminine') = tie (usually worn by males, but the noun type has nothing to do with males, guys or masculinity)
las corbatas (f plural) = ties

la camisa (f) = shirt (worn by males and females, but the noun's type is not tied to who is wearing the shirt - the gender of the person is not considered)
las camisas (f pl) = shirts

la muñeca (f) = wrist (it doesn't matter if the wrist belongs to a boy or a girl, its type is always feminine)

There is a feminine noun, albeit slang, used for a man's private part. That doesn't matter at all, since the guy's gender is not in the equation.

There are gender-specific words, as mentioned by wrholt above.
la niña (class is 'feminine') = female child (cannot denote a male child)
el niño (class is 'masculine') = child (but never used for a child known to be female)
las niñas (f pl) = female children
los niños (m pl) = children (all male, or a mix of male and female)

And there are career-related nouns that need to be memorized, as people are trying to make them gender-aware nowadays.

Last edited by Rusty; December 19, 2016 at 02:42 PM. Reason: clarified
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  #8  
Old December 19, 2016, 03:12 PM
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I'm learning a lot from these posts. I'm going to start the second lesson tonight, and I'll post back when I have more questions.

Thanks.
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