Imperative statements and Indirect Object Pronouns and Irse

[Roxerz]

When I was living in Mexico, I think I frequently heard "pásale". I've also heard "pásele" and known it's the formal form of the verb pasar. I understand the first example is the informal command but I would think that it would be "pásate" which I've never heard said. I also have heard this with the cartoon character Speedy Gonzalez say, "Ándale, arriba arriba". My girlfriend said to me on two different occasions, "casate conmigo" and instead of paying attention to what she said, I thought more of why didn't she say "casame?" Is it because the verb is reflexive? So how would one propose in Spanish? "te casas conmigo?"

When I used to live with a roommate in Mexico, he would rarely use imperatives at me. Instead of 'dime', he would say 'me dices' etc. I brought this subject up once before when ordering food. I often here "me das una coca por favor" or similar construction when I asked about using 'me gustaría' which was in our Spanish books. We both moved away for about 3-4 months and both of us ended back at the same house for a month. We were still friendly with each other but were a bit distant. When I was leaving to finally back back to the US, he messaged me "cuidece hermano, etc. etc." which was a bit different from him saying "con cuidado carnal" or something to that effect. It was kind of weird to me that he used formal imperative to me. I have 2 approaches to this, 1) which he said it in a formal structure out of respect or 2) it's to an estranged person like how I would call my dad "father" rather than "dad" to show no personal relation.

I once said to a friend by mistake, "vete a ....." and she took it as offensive and then told me to just use "ve". Afterwards, I learned the difference between IR and IRSE, one is to go and the other is more like leaving. When I meant to say, "We are leaving", I used to say, "Estamos saliendo ahora" when I meant to say "Ya nos vamos". When using IRSE, would you use "a" or "de"?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

About "pásale"/"pásele": Mexicans tend to add a "-le" to some very colloquial expressions to indicate a place or a situation the listener is supposed to know.
The "le" in this case, substitutes the place you are being invited to enter.

In a fight, for example, one of the disputants can be heard saying: "¡Éntrale!" They're urging the other to enter the fight.
Another example: during a family dinner, the father can demand to be served more by saying "sírvele más"; there is no third person to whom this "le" refers to, just the plate where the person expects more food.

You must have heard the expression "órale" (which is full of meanings); it comes from "ahora" and the verb-like particle "le". Originally it only meant "do it now", "hurry up", but now it's used in many other ways.
Almost the same for "ándale", where "le" is just as vague as the one in "órale". Both expressions can be synonyms sometimes too.

By the way, you may hear "pásate" very often too, but maybe the slight nuance of meaning is that it expresses more a permission than an invitation.

My girlfriend said to me on two different occasions, "cásate conmigo" and instead of paying attention to what she said, I thought more of why didn't she say "cásame?" Is it because the verb is reflexive? So how would one propose in Spanish? "te casas conmigo?"

The collocation for that verb is "casar(se) con alguien". It can be used without the pronominal particle (in archaic expressions), but not without the "con".
- Juan se casó con Amanda.
- (In the Bible) Isaac casó con Rebeca, hija de Batuel.

The commonplace way to ask "Will you marry me?" in Spanish is "¿Quieres casarte conmigo?" (Which is rather a literal translation.)
"¿Te casas conmigo?" may work and also "Cásate conmigo". The most important thing about using imperatives or avoiding them, is the tone for talking and the context. If you are proposing, you certainly aren't giving her an order, and she'll understand that.

By the way, if you tell someone "cásame", they will ask you to whom, provided they have the right authority to pronounce a marriage.
- El juez que nos casó no supo pronunciar bien mi nombre.
- Allá va el padre que casó a Pedro y Elisa.

When I was leaving to finally back back to the US, he messaged me "cuídese hermano, etc. etc." which was a bit different from him saying "con cuidado carnal" or something to that effect. It was kind of weird to me that he used formal imperative to me. I have 2 approaches to this, 1) which he said it in a formal structure out of respect or 2) it's to an estranged person like how I would call my dad "father" rather than "dad" to show no personal relation.

Nothing like that. For a start, if he called you "hermano", he still feels he's a close friend to you. The use of "usted" in Spanish, out of the formal/informal context, has a lot of nuances that go from angry estrangement to endearing approachment, but in this case it's merely used as a warm goodbye expression. He could have said "cuídate" with the same affection and meaning as "con cuidado" or "te cuidas".

When using IRSE, would you use "a" or "de"?

It depends on what you are thinking: are you going to a place or are you leaving a place?

- Mis amigos se fueron al extranjero.
- Mis amigos se fueron del país.

- Los niños se van a su casa en una hora.
- Los niños se van de la escuela en una hora.

- No sabía que ya te habías ido a la fiesta.
- No sabía que ya te habías ido de la fiesta.

- No nos hemos ido a la playa en tres años.
- No nos hemos ido de la ciudad en tres años.

- Váyanse a la tienda a comprar unos refrescos. (This is an imperative often heard, for example by a mother to her children, and it's not necessarily aggressive.)
- ¡Váyanse de mi tienda! (This is a rude imperative --probably the children who were sent to buy the sodas were misbehaving.)

[Roxerz]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

- Mis amigos se fueron al extranjero.
- Mis amigos se fueron del país.

Gracias Angelica!

In the first example, why would you use IRSE instead of just IR? Is it implying that they left their country to go abroad?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I was only using "irse", as that's the form of the verb you asked about.
Normally, if you use "irse" for going to a place, it's just an emphasis on the action, and one often can get rid of the pronominal ("ve a la tienda" = "vete a la tienda"); if it is used to leave a place, then there's some idea of definite action.
For this specific case, if there is no more context, since the action can not be done easily (as going to the grocery store around the corner), both sentences imply my friends left for good; however, if you add "para estudiar", then one may assume in both sentences that once they're done with their studies they'll come back home.

[Hiperbólico]

Hello. I hope I can add some thoughts without interrupting too much...

I'm curious as well about expressions such as ándale and the like, namely from a linguistic perspective. In the case of transitive verbs, can the -le suffix (e.g. as in éntrale) be thought of as a modified direct object pronoun? That is to say, éntrale is approximate to éntralo with a subtle difference in meaning―in a way making this imperative into a very similar but distinct verbal case.

On a side note, I will say that I've heard ándale in conversation among Cuban Americans, and I'm sure it's spoken occasionally among certain other nationalities. I believe we adopted the phrase due to its notoriety and expressiveness. Regardless, we use it sparingly and perhaps often with tongue in cheek, as the expression rarely fails to lose its Mexican "twang" or "flavor".

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

In the case of transitive verbs, can the -le suffix (e.g. as in éntrale) be thought of as a modified direct object pronoun? That is to say, éntrale is approximate to éntralo (Side note: This expression would make no sense; the verb "entrar" is not transitive) with a subtle difference in meaning―in a way making this imperative into a very similar but distinct verbal case.

No, the function of OD and OI pronouns is very different from the use of the false suffix "-le" in those expressions, which has no real grammatical function at all.

There are times when we have an illusion that "le" is acting as a pronoun, because we feel the situation is substituted by it (like in the previous example of "sírvele"):

- I missed a spot on the wall I was painting, so I hear someone telling me: "Píntale bien ahí" -> "le" substitutes that spot on the wall, but they could have said "pinta bien ahí" without any change of meaning.
- Ábrele a la puerta. -> Grammatically speaking, they should have said "abre la puerta". "Le" works as some sort of emphasis on the action of opening the door, since the expression itself would make no sense otherwise.
- Ciérrale a la llave. -> Same as previous, I only have to turn off the tap, and they could have simply said "Cierra la llave".
- Piénsale, ¿cómo resolvemos este problema? -> All one has to do is to think about the situation and how to solve the problem. "Piensa" would have been a better choice for an imperative.

In all these cases, "le" is useless, but we keep the idea of the situation and the action itself to relate it to.


There are many other imperatives that are commonly accompanied by this superfluous -"le", only vaguer:

- Síguele -> When we are annoyed by someone and warn them that if they keep on doing it, there will be consequences.
- Vuélale -> Hurry up ("don't run, fly!")
- Apúrale -> Hurry, hurry up!
- Camínale/córrele -> Another "hurry up" ["walk/run fast(er)"]
- Cáele -> Come over!
...


And there are many expressions that remind the imperative and the suffix, but they aren't verbs and "le" is not a pronoun for anything either:

- Újule -> Bugger! Oh dear! Geez!
- Épale -> Hold it! Stop it there! Where do you think you're going? Hey! Whoa, whoa, whoa!
- Híjole -> Erm... Gosh! Oh my!
- École -> That's right.
...


I hope I didn't make it more confusing. =)


Oh, by the way, there are no interruptions. The idea of the community is that the questions we post will be useful for everyone.

[Hiperbólico]

Gracias, Angelica.

Just to clarify, I'm sorry (to any readers) about my little éntralo idea. My mind was trying to find an analog that fit the action conveyed, but this construction of course makes little grammatical sense.

Anyway, I think your post is very helpful. Since it seems so difficult to define or evaluate a meaningful function for -le, then the best we can do is see how it serves in actual examples. And for someone who never uses these expressions (outside the watered-down clichés like ándale), the concept is rather foreign and elusive. Your explanations definitely give me a better idea of their usage.

There are also thankfully some very good informal references (and one or two freely accessible academic literature) on the topic, although I wish the subject was more streamlined for non-native speakers learning Spanish.