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Indirect Object Pronouns

 

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  #1  
Old January 25, 2023, 10:18 AM
Oldman Oldman is offline
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Indirect Object Pronouns

I'm a bit confused on grammar -

I found a question on a quiz " Ellos XXXX invitan a Susana a jugar " and you are supposed to substitute an indirect object pronoun for Susana and I believe come up with the answer : Ellos le invitan a jugar".

I am confused about the use of the indirect object pronoun here..

If the original question had been "Ellos invitan a Susana", here we have Susana as a direct object , so then the sentence become "Ellos lo invitan", or simply "lo invitan" (I think)

If I am correct on this point, why does the inclusion of "a jugar" cause the use of an indirect object pronoun ?

This question is probably more of an English grammar question than Spanish, but if someone could give me a little guidance, I would appreciate it

Last edited by Oldman; January 25, 2023 at 10:50 AM.
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  #2  
Old January 25, 2023, 01:18 PM
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The model for this transitive verb is:
invitar [sb] a [sth]

The [sb] stands for 'somebody'. This person is the indirect object.
The [sth] represents 'something'. The noun or infinitive used here is the direct object.

In Spanish, the model is:
invitar a alguien a algo (a hacer algo)

The indirect object is always preceded by the preposition 'a'. It isn't translated into English.
You can use an indirect object pronoun to represent the person.
It is also possible to be redundant and employ both the indirect object pronoun and the indirect object in the same sentence.


In the sentence you found, 'a Susana' is the indirect object and 'a jugar' is the direct object. This particular verb mandates the use of the preposition 'a' before the noun/infinitive. The preposition is translated into English as 'to'.

By choosing to write «Ellos le invitan a jugar» you correctly substituted an indirect object pronoun. (The direct object was not affected.) Good job!


If the original question were «Ellos invitan a Susana» only the direct object has been omitted from the sentence. Susana is still the indirect object.
If you were to substitute the indirect object pronoun, the sentence would become «Ellos le invitan

The direct object may be omitted if it is known or understood. That includes the preposition 'a' which the verb mandates.
A direct object pronoun, if used, would be 'lo' or 'la', depending on the noun. It would be 'lo' if an infinitive were what is being omitted.

The inclusion or exclusion of the direct object doesn't alter the type of object the person is. She or he will always be the indirect object.
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Old January 25, 2023, 02:36 PM
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If the original question were «Ellos invitan a Susana» only the direct object has been omitted from the sentence. Susana is still the indirect object.
If you were to substitute the indirect object pronoun, the sentence would become «Ellos le invitan.»

Now, you have really thrown me ( I probably should have paid more attention in 10th grade English). I thought a direct object is the one the verb is acting upon.....so "They invited Susana".......I was thinking the inviting is acting on Susana.

I eat food.....food is direct object ?
I smell her....her is a direct object?
I see Susuna...Susana the direct object
I invite Susana.....Susana is an indirect object ?

I'm flumoxed. Are you saying it's because of the specific verb 'to invite' (probably among others)?

What of "I see Susana playing cards ?" lo le veo ?

Last edited by Oldman; January 25, 2023 at 02:42 PM.
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Old January 25, 2023, 02:55 PM
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Found on the world wide web, so must be true: "The indirect object is the recipient of the direct object."

So Susana was the recipient of getting invited to play, or to a party, or whatever

If I go with this idea," I see Susana" is unclear...Am I see her doing something, or am I just seeing her as a direct object
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Old January 25, 2023, 03:00 PM
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Check a good Spanish dictionary.
Invitar is a transitive verb (like the others you listed), but for this particular verb, the direct object (the thing you're inviting the person to, or to do) must be preceded by the preposition 'a'. In English, it means 'to'.

English sentences:
I invited Susana to the circus. (D.O. = circus)
I invited Susana to fly out to see us. (D.O. = to fly out to see us)

I invited Susana. To what or to do what?
You may have omitted the direct object because you've mentioned it before.
If it wasn't mentioned, or if someone new joins the conversation, you'll be asked, "To do what?"

The Spanish version must have 'a' before the direct object. That is unusual. But there are other verbs that mandate the use of 'to'. If you omit the direct object, a Spanish speaker will ask, "¿A qué?" See how they know to include the preposition with that particular verb?


Second post:

Don't switch verbs.
The verb 'see' takes a direct object. Susana is the direct object. That is the person receiving the action.
'Invite' is a different animal. The thing you're inviting Susana to is the direct object. She is the recipient.

Last edited by Rusty; January 25, 2023 at 03:04 PM. Reason: added response to OP's second post
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Old January 26, 2023, 07:41 AM
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So this seems to be an issue with the language of Spanish and how it treats the word "invite "? In other words, in English "They invited Susan to play on the team", there is no indirect object ?
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Old January 26, 2023, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldman View Post
So this seems to be an issue with the language of Spanish and how it treats the word "invite "? In other words, in English "They invited Susan to play on the team", there is no indirect object ?
English uses the same construction for the verb 'invite'. (Lucky for you that Spanish has no issue. It treats invitar the exact same way English does.)

We aren't inviting Susan. That makes no sense alone.

There must be an object. In other words, you can't invite without extending the invitation. The invitation is the direct object and it will always be a prepositional phrase (starting with 'to' or 'for'). Susan is NOT the invitation.

We invite Susan to someplace or to do something.

I invited Susan to dinner.
The invitation is to dine, and Susan is the person you're inviting to dine.
Susan is the indirect object.

It can be no other way. English and Spanish agree on this matter.
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Old January 26, 2023, 08:59 AM
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Please follow this link and tell me what you think

https://forum.wordreference.com/thre...#post-20520899
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  #9  
Old January 30, 2023, 09:39 PM
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As Rusty said, the verbs that take a direct object are transitive verbs. This means that they're actions that need to pass on something or someone.
If you want to know when a verb is transitive, just use the subject and the verb without a complement. Does it make sense? If it doesn't, you have a transitive verb.

- Mary talks -> yes
- The children scream -> yes
- The teachers take -> no
- I buy -> no

The verb "to invite" needs a person to make sense, and the pronouns in Spanish corresponding to the direct object are: lo, la, los, las.

- Los amigos invitan a Susana. -> Los amigos la invitan.
The friends invite Susana. -> The friends invite her.
- Llevo al perro al veterinario. -> Lo llevo al veterinario.
I take the dog to the vet. -> I take it to the vet.
- Señores, queremos sus opiniones. -> Las queremos.
Gentlemen, we want your opinions. -> We want them
- El gato trajo dos ratones. -> El gato los trajo.
The cat brought two mice. -> The cat brought them.
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Old January 31, 2023, 02:26 AM
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The idea I brought forward, then, that the invitation is the direct object, appears to be faulty logic.

I've done some more research and have learned that the person being invited is the direct object (según dice el Diccionario panhispánico de dudas) and that the invitation itself is partitioned off, called a prepositional complement, and is preceded with the preposition 'a'. As such, this prepositional phrase (the piece containing the invitation) doesn't figure in the verb's transitivity.
I also learned that in some instances, el leísmo de cortesía could have wrongly influenced my confusion. I was certainly exposed to such treatment when I was learning Spanish.
And there are times when the verb is being used with the meaning of "I'm paying. (Me encargo de todo.)" In this case, the person is the indirect object, because they are the recipient of the gesture (my offering to pay for something, which is the direct object). In this case, there is no prepositional complement. However, the way the sentence was presented in the quiz, it is clear that this structure was not in use.

So, retracting what I have said, Susana would be the direct object and 'la' would be the correct object pronoun to substitute, as Angélica stated.

But this begs the question, "Why would the quiz ask the learner to substitute an indirect object pronoun if Susana wasn't the indirect object?"
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