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One can see many stars
I am receiving advice on other forums that I don't think is correct.
The English phrase "One can see many stars" would be translated as: "uno puede ver muchas estrellas". But I am told that the following statement is incorrect: (1) "se puede ver muchas estrellas" It should actually be as follows (with plural verb): (2) "se pueden ver muchas estrellas" Is (1) acceptable? If not, why not? --------------------- There is a similar issue in English, considering that we have no epicene singular pronoun. If you ask "How should a student prepare his homework?" the proper response (using a pronoun) is one of the following: (A) "One should prepare one's homework neatly" (B) "He should prepare his homework neatly" (C) "He or she should prepare his or her homework neatly" (awkward) But many people will respond (D) "They should prepare their homework neatly" While (D) was once proper English more than 3 centuries ago, it is considered improper today. But it is so widely done, that some grammarians think that it will become the norm again. |
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Last edited by Rusty; December 19, 2011 at 12:24 PM. |
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Thank you Rusty. I was looking for a valid grammatical reason. I see that the impersonal plural does not use the word 'se'.
Dicen que la pizza vegetariana es saludosa. As to the English question: I have read that before 1700 it was common to say "they". But then it was declared improper by grammarians to use the plural tense. But after WWII, using the simple masculine was no longer considered correct, and "they" became widely used once again. Some grammarians think that "they" will eventually be declared proper English, but for now it is on the books as incorrect. But from your explanation, it doesn't seem that my Spanish question, and the English question were related. I am confusing two different issues. |
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A researcher has to be completely objective in their findings. Some people object to the use of plural pronouns in this type of situation on the grounds that it’s ungrammatical. In fact, the use of plural pronouns to refer back to a singular subject isn’t new: it represents a revival of a practice dating from the 16th century. It’s increasingly common in current English and is now widely accepted both in speech and in writing. http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/...he-versus-they |
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My warning about "puede/n verse" instead of "se puede/n ver" comes from "poder + infinitive" being a "perífrasis verbal" in Spanish, so you can take "puede/n ver" and add the pronoun at the beginning or the end ("se pueden ver" or "pueden verse"), but other common structures are not "perífrasis verbales" -or they are not widely acknowledged like that-, for instance, "quieren irse" which cannot be put as "se quieren ir" although informally we all say it.
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Here you can find more discussion and some links about the topic:
http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=12141
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"Many stars can be seen" is a 'passive' translation, and I agree that the plural should be used, because 'stars' is plural.
The English sentence "One can see many stars" is written using the 'active voice'. There is a subject. The 'passive' lacks a subject. When the subject in the active voice doesn't designate a specific person, it's translated into Spanish using the 'impersonal 'se'' construct. The singular form of the third-person ending is used. Native speakers sometimes confuse these two constructs. Last edited by Rusty; December 19, 2011 at 03:53 PM. |
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Some examples:
Using CREA (Corpus de Referencia del Español Actual - Real Academia Española): "se puede ver muchas" ---> 0 results "se puede ver unas" ---> 0 results "puede verse muchas" ---> 0 results "puede verse unas" ---> 0 results "se pueden ver muchas" ---> 4 results [Including "Con estos instrumentos, se pueden ver muchas más estrellas que a ojo..." from "Guía para observar el firmamento", María Rosa Herrera Merino, 2002, España] "se pueden ver unas" ---> 4 results "pueden verse muchas" ---> 1 result "pueden verse unas" ---> 2 results [Both, "pueden verse unas cuantas galaxias..." and "pueden verse unas 6.500 estrellas..." from "Manual práctico del astrónomo aficionado", José María Oliver, 1992, España] If they are needed I may found instances of "se pueden..." in the very "Nueva Gramática". From "Diccionario panhispánico de dudas" (Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española): "Se pueden distinguir dos tipos de concordancia:".
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