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la diferencia entre los verbos venir e ir

 

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  #51  
Old March 27, 2008, 06:28 PM
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I'm having a bit of a hard time keeping up with all the conversations around here. You all go really fast

Another option for "meter la pata" is "to commit a faux pas". Pronounced "fo pa".

Going back to the ir/venir debate, I'd like to give my take on how I understand what Alfonso is saying, to see if I understand right.

1. Voy a la fiesta, ¿vas a venir?
2. Voy a la fiesta, ¿vas a ir?

Example #1 would be something like:

"I'm going to the party, are you coming with me?" <- the idea of companionship (in other words we're going to drive there together)

And number 2 would be:

"I'm going to the party, are you going to show up/ are you going to be there?" (In other words, I'm planning on going, but I'm not going right this instant, and I just want to know if the other person is going to be there later on.)

Would that be a pretty good analogy? Or, in case #2, would you still use "vas a venir"?
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  #52  
Old March 28, 2008, 02:27 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Thanks a lot, David, for your answer. To commit a faux pas, that's French! Am I right if I think it can sounds in English a little snobbish? Is it used all over English speaking countries?

Regarding venir/ir debate:

I agree with you in #1. That is exactly what I mean.

Another option to explain the idea of companionship that can be involved in the verb venir is the fact that vienes conmigo? can be said, meanwhile vas conmigo is hardly acceptable (I'm looking for a context on which this can be said, but I can't find a clear one). And the impossibility of mixing up the verb ir and the complement of companionship conmigo is due to the contradiction lexically suggested between both words.

#2. Actually, time is not involved. So I don't think it matters if you or I are going to the party right now or later on. The only idea conveyed is the fact that I'm not inviting you to come along with me. So there is not idea of companionship conveyed.
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  #53  
Old March 28, 2008, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfonso View Post
Thanks a lot, David, for your answer. To commit a faux pas, that's French! Am I right if I think it sounds a little snobbish in English? Is it used all over English speaking countries?
Yes, faux pas is French, but it's a very common expression in the US. I don't know about other countries. Here it wouldn't be snobbish or stuck-up at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfonso View Post
Regarding venir/ir debate:

I agree with you in #1. That is exactly what I mean.

Another option to explain the idea of companionship that can be involved in the verb venir is the fact that vienes conmigo? can be said, meanwhile vas conmigo is hardly acceptable (I'm looking for a context on which this can be said, but I can't find a clear one). And the impossibility of mixing up the verb ir and the complement of companionship conmigo is due to the contradiction lexically suggested between both words.

#2. Actually, time is not involved. So I don't think it matters if you or I are going to the party right now or later on. The only idea conveyed is the fact that I'm not inviting you to come along with me. So there is not idea of companionship conveyed.
Thanks for your explanations Alfonso, they help. Here's another hypothetical situation:

There's going to be a party at 8pm at someone's house, and we're at school.

#1. Va a haber una fiesta a las 8 en casa de Fulano, ¿vas a ir?
#2. Va a haber una fiesta a las 8 en casa de Fulano, ¿vas a venir?


Are both of these right?

Also, what do you think of a sentence like the following, does it sound ok to you?

(Estamos en la Ciudad de México, y le digo a un amigo)
Mañana voy a Guadalaja, ¿te vas conmigo?
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  #54  
Old March 28, 2008, 03:12 AM
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Alfonso, there are lots of French expressions in English and they are so common that people don't consider them foreign any more. Some examples:
- coup d'etat or simply coup
-premiere
-café
-pièce de resistance
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  #55  
Old March 28, 2008, 06:28 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Thanks a lot, Iris and David, for your information!

Yendo y viniendo:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisimo View Post
#1. Va a haber una fiesta a las 8 en casa de Fulano, ¿vas a ir?
#2. Va a haber una fiesta a las 8 en casa de Fulano, ¿vas a venir?
Both can be said. But:

#1. I'm not going to the party. I'm only asking in order to know what you're doing. (This is a new case we hadn't consider, but, newly, there is not idea of companionship).

#2. I want you to come along with me. If I have a car, I'll drive you to the party. (This case is already considered).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisimo View Post
(Estamos en la Ciudad de México, y le digo a un amigo)
Mañana voy a Guadalajara, ¿te vas conmigo?
These two sentences lacks coherency between them. Moreover, the last sentence is incoherent by itself with the context and with something already said: ir + conmigo don't mix up very well.

However, I think I finally found some contexts on which something like this can be said:

Tú vas conmigo. In a really imperative manner.

Te vas conmigo de allí. We are not at the place we're talking about. We're speaking about the future. We need a mean to get out from a place and we are not coming back to the place we are now. The focus is in getting out from somewhere. Then, we are getting out together, because we both are really interested in going away from there.

Vas conmigo, no te preocupes, no pasará nada. This also can be said. We are going somewhere right now, or we are planing to go. The nuance conveyed is don't worry, you are with me.

As you can see, verbal stylistics are really complex. On the other hand, I can only explain my own use and those I have heard of. I don't rule other possibilities out.
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  #56  
Old April 03, 2008, 12:24 AM
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Gracias Alfonso for helping me understand this. It's not the easiest subject
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  #57  
Old April 04, 2008, 05:22 PM
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It certainly is not the easiest subject and they really do go too fast.
Ít sure has been enlightening!
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  #58  
Old April 09, 2008, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfonso View Post
Thanks a lot, David, for your answer. To commit a faux pas, that's French! Am I right if I think it can sounds in English a little snobbish? Is it used all over English speaking countries?

Regarding venir/ir debate:

I agree with you in #1. That is exactly what I mean.

Another option to explain the idea of companionship that can be involved in the verb venir is the fact that vienes conmigo? can be said, meanwhile vas conmigo is hardly acceptable (I'm looking for a context on which this can be said, but I can't find a clear one). And the impossibility of mixing up the verb ir and the complement of companionship conmigo is due to the contradiction lexically suggested between both words.

#2. Actually, time is not involved. So I don't think it matters if you or I are going to the party right now or later on. The only idea conveyed is the fact that I'm not inviting you to come along with me. So there is not idea of companionship conveyed.
Hola a todos:

Según lo que dices arriba, no sería correcto decir:

Voy a la fiesta de Sosia, vas conmigo?

Lo he escuchado antes pero nunca me puse a pensar que fuera incorrecto.

¡Muy interesante!

Elaina
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  #59  
Old April 09, 2008, 01:18 PM
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Are you sure, Elaina, you heard of:
  • Voy a la fiesta, ¿vas conmigo? instead of:
  • Voy a la fiesta, ¿vienes conmigo?
Second one is much more common. Although you can find some contexts (they have been already said) on which: Voy... ¿vas conmigo...? is possible.

Of course, none of them is incorrect. But, depending on the context, you can find a lexical contradiction in the first one.

Anyway, if you use one or the other formula, you are conveying subtlety different meanings.
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  #60  
Old April 09, 2008, 02:14 PM
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Si, pero ahora estoy confundida..........

En inglés......

I am going to the party, will you come with me?

or

I am going to the party, will you go with me?

I am thinking it is the nuances in vocabulary depending on where you are living that is getting me confused....for example:

In the South - you loan
In the Midwest - you borrow

for example:
In the South - Can you lend me your book?
In the Midwest - Can you borrow me your book?

In the South - drinking water fountain
In the Midwest - water bubbler

So I'm thinking maybe, just maybe......in some parts of the US you say, Will you go with me? and in some other parts you say, Will you come with me?

Language can be very confusing but interesting at the same time!!

Thanks for your help!!

Elaina
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