Passive voice with verb phrases

[jemenake]

If I want to say "can the room be cleaned at 2", I figure that I need to use the passive voice, but I'm also using a verb phrase (poder with limpiar), so where does the "se" go?

Do I say "se puede limpiar el cuarto a los dos?" Or "puede se limpiar el cuarto..." Or "puede limpiarse el cuarto..."?

My Spanish teacher says to say "Puede usted limpiar...", but the person I'm addressing will NOT be the person actually cleaning the room. So, I think passive voice is what I want. So, where does the "se" go?

[Rusty]

You're using the impersonal 'se', not the passive voice. (The passive voice is seldom used in Spanish. The 'voz pasiva refleja' is used much more often than the passive voice. It has a subject.)

Se puede limpiar
Puede limpiarse

Both are correct. I would use the first construct, however, since it is more commonly heard. There is no particular individual mentioned in this construct. That's why it's called the impersonal 'se'.

[jemenake]

Originally Posted by Rusty

You're using the impersonal 'se', not the passive voice.

Oh, great.... I know nothing, again. :-\

Going back and reading about impersonal 'se' vs. passive voice, my sources are saying that impersonal 'se' is used with intransitive verbs and when you want the the equivalent of "Can they clean the room?".

Conversely, my sources say that passive voice is used with transitive verbs (which "clean" is) and when you don't want to refer to some un-named "they", but rather just that the object is receiving an action, like when I want to ask "Can the room be cleaned?".

The odd part, here, is that it looks like the sentence, in Spanish, comes out the same, either way, no?

[Rusty]

Your book is not explaining things clearly or may be a tad confusing. Working with a transitive verb in the passive voice is a must, so forget that your book mentions an intransitive verb for just a second.

The English active voice has a subject and a verb. To understand the passive voice, we also have to have a direct object (so the verb must be transitive). The Spanish active voice is identical to the English active voice, in that it has a subject and a verb, and a direct object if we want to talk about the Spanish passive voice.

Here are a few examples of the active voice in both languages:

The man drove the car. El hombre condujo el coche.
The maid cleaned the room. La camarera limpió la habitación.
The bird ate the worm. El pájaro comió el gusano.

I'm certain you can find the subject, the verb and the direct object in each sentence (just remove the articles and the words appear in the order I've listed). Spanish has more flexibility, but let's keep it simple.

Instead of a subject, the noun that was the direct object in the active voice becomes the patient in the passive voice. The patient is the acted upon by the verb.
The subject in the active voice can appear in the passive voice, but since the focus of a passive voice sentence is on the action and the thing acted upon, the performer of the action isn't always stated. If it is provided, it is known as the agent and it is always preceded by the word 'by' ('por', in Spanish).

Here are the same sentences above, but rendered in the passive voice in both languages:

The car was driven by the man. El coche fue conducido por el hombre.
The room was cleaned by the maid. La habitación fue limpiada por la camarera.
The worm was eaten by the bird. El gusano fue comido por el pájaro.

I'm certain you can see that what was the direct object in the active voice has now assumed the role of patient in the passive voice. What was the subject in the active voice is now playing the role of agent. And the verb has been changed to a third-person conjugated form of 'to be' plus a past participle. This is the passive voice in English and in Spanish. The Spanish passive voice is not used as much as it is used in English because the Spanish language has a replacement that they prefer over the passive voice.

The replacement is known as the 'voz pasiva refleja'. It can be used whenever you'd like to convey something written in the English passive voice. (And its only translation back into English is a passive voice sentence.)

The 'voz pasiva refleja' has a subject, but that subject is never a person (so it is often associated with the patient in the English passive voice). The verb will always be conjugated in the third person, but will agree in number with the subject. The verb will always be accompanied by the pronoun 'se'. Remember that the Spanish subject can appear after the verb.
Examples:
The car was driven. Se condujo el coche.
Fruits are sold here. Se venden frutas.
Spanish and English are spoken here. Se hablan español e inglés.
The room has been cleaned. Se ha limpiado la habitación.
Rooms are rented here. Se alquilan habitaciones.


Now, let's tackle what your text book may be trying to tell you, since it is obviously not talking about the Spanish passive voice or the Spanish 'voz pasiva refleja'.

It may be talking about the impersonal passive, an English term. In English, this is only used with an intransitive verb. The Spanish equivalent is known as the impersonal 'se' construction. This is used anytime you aren't referencing a particular individual (impersonal). In Spanish, though, the verb can be transitive or intransitive. The sentence uses the active voice structure, but because the subject is no one in particular, the pronoun 'se' replaces the subject. The conjugated verb will always be in the third-person singular form, even though the English impersonal equivalent could be 'they'.

Examples:

They say (that) ... / It is said (that) ... Se dice que ...
You (no one in particular) can clean the room now. Se puede limpiar la habitación ahora.
They (no one in particular) clean the room every day. Se limpia la habitación todos los días.
(You can ask the middle one as a question and get 'Can the room be cleaned now?')

[jemenake]

Holy smokes! What a reply! Okay, I'm starting to see the light...

Originally Posted by Rusty

The 'voz pasiva refleja' has a subject, but that subject is never a person...
Examples:
The car was driven. Se condujo el coche.
Fruits are sold here. Se venden frutas.
Spanish and English are spoken here. Se hablan español e inglés.
The room has been cleaned. Se ha limpiado la habitación.
Rooms are rented here. Se alquilan habitaciones.
...

... The Spanish equivalent is known as the impersonal 'se' construction. ..

Examples:
They say (that) ... / It is said (that) ... Se dice que ...
You (no one in particular) can clean the room now. Se puede limpiar la habitación ahora.
They (no one in particular) clean the room every day. Se limpia la habitación todos los días.
(You can ask the middle one as a question and get 'Can the room be cleaned now?')

Okay. So, I guess my last questions are some comparative examples so that I might grasp the nuances of how these two forms differ in Spanish, like:
What's the difference in the translations of:
"They sell fruits here" vs "Fruits are sold here"
or
"They (no one in particular) clean the room" vs "The room is cleaned"
or
"They (no one in particular) drove the car" vs "The car was driven"

[Rusty]

"They sell fruits here."
This is the English and Spanish active voice. The English subject 'they' could be referring to actual individuals or no one in particular. The Spanish 'ellos/ellas venden' would refer to actual individuals. The Spanish 'venden' would refer to no one in particular (if the individuals weren't already established). The use of 'se vende' refers to no one in particular. This is the "impersonal 'se'" construct.

"Fruits are sold here."
This is the English passive voice. Notice the use of the conjugated 'to be' verb and the past participle.
The Spanish language has a passive voice equivalent, but it isn't used as often as we use the passive voice. Note that it also contains a conjugated form of 'ser' and a past participle.
"Las frutas son vendidas aquí."

The Spanish 'voz pasiva refleja' is preferred over the Spanish passive voice.
"Se venden frutas."

Does this make sense?

[jemenake]

Originally Posted by Rusty

"Fruits are sold here."
...
"Las frutas son vendidas aquí."

Okay, this actually brings up a related question I had. To me, "Las frutas son vendidas aqui" indicates that all of the fruits I see before me are sold already. It *especially* seems this way because "vendidas" has been modified to match the gender and plurality of "Las frutas", which tells me that it is being used as an adjective. In other words, I'm looking at already-sold fruit.

I had already had this question bopping around in my head because Duolingo had asked me to translate:
"The book was published yesterday"
and I responded with:
"El libro se publico' ayer"
and Duolingo said that the right answer was something like:
"El libro fue publicado ayer"

Now, to me, that sounds like the book was in a published *state* yesterday... that it was "in print". In other words, if the printing presses actually *printed* the book last week, then, *last week*:
"The book was published" (where "published" is a verb)
and, yesterday, the day before, and all of the days after the printing:
"The book was published" (where "published" is an adjective)

I had thought that Spanish had a nice way of telling those two cases apart where English does not, but everybody I ask always says "fue publicado" for both cases.

Is that correct?

[Rusty]

The passive voice, which is what your software application wanted you to use, is NOT used in Spanish very often. It is used in English a lot. It is a way to focus on the object being acted upon (the patient) and doesn't necessarily have to provide the agent (the person doing the action).
The passive voice is comprised of a conjugated form of the 'to be' verb, followed by a past participle. This construct exists in both English and Spanish. But, as I stated, it isn't used a lot in Spanish.
The Spanish prefer the 'voz pasiva refleja'. This is the response you gave to the software application. It is correct in every way and is the preferred way to say what the English sentence said. However, it is not the passive voice and it looks like the application only accepts a translation of the passive voice into the passive voice.

The passive voice is used when the action is NOT performed by the subject (also called a 'patient').
"Fruits are sold here."
Fruits is the subject/patient. Did they do the selling? No. They are being sold.

By whom? We don't know. No mention was made about who is selling the fruits. The focus is on what is being sold (not 'sold', but being sold).
An agent (the one selling the fruits) may be mentioned in the passive voice, but it only appears after the word 'by'.
"Fruits are sold by the boy."

That is the passive voice.

The Spanish passive voice is formed the exact same way as the English passive voice.

Spanish has an additional way to express passivity - the 'voz pasiva refleja'. It is used much more than the passive voice.