Ask a Question

(Create a thread)
Go Back   Spanish language learning forums > Spanish & English Languages > Grammar


Grammar

 

This is the place for questions about conjugations, verb tenses, adverbs, adjectives, word order, syntax and other grammar questions for English or Spanish.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 29, 2008, 02:36 PM
Iris's Avatar
Iris Iris is offline
Emerald
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Where the stork dropped me years ago, wish it had done it further north
Posts: 687
Native Language: nominally:Spanish, emotionally:Engl
Iris is on a distinguished road
Grammar

Some of my workmates think an exhaustive study of grammar()is essential to learn a foreign language, but I disagree. What about you?
__________________
Take care,
María José
Reply With Quote
   
Get rid of these ads by registering for a free Tomísimo account.
  #2  
Old May 29, 2008, 04:01 PM
poli's Avatar
poli poli is offline
rule 1: gravity
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In and around New York
Posts: 7,464
Native Language: English
poli will become famous soon enoughpoli will become famous soon enough
You, as a teacher would know. Have your students had success without
extensive grammar?
I certainly think knowing the function and how to identify difference between nouns, verbs, pronouns,abverbs adjectives, prepositions, conjunctions, direct objects, and indirect objects would help. I do think that learning a second language requires the drudgery of memorization.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old May 29, 2008, 06:01 PM
Rusty's Avatar
Rusty Rusty is offline
Señor Speedy
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 10,658
Native Language: American English
Rusty has a spectacular aura aboutRusty has a spectacular aura about
Most people who speak only one language don't really know its grammar. They may think they do, but a deeper understanding of grammar really begins when you are forced to apply the rules you know to a foreign tongue. All of a sudden, you start to pay a lot of attention to sentence structure. Learning a foreign tongue is a good grammar refresher course, to say the least.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old May 30, 2008, 07:39 AM
poli's Avatar
poli poli is offline
rule 1: gravity
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In and around New York
Posts: 7,464
Native Language: English
poli will become famous soon enoughpoli will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
Most people who speak only one language don't really know its grammar. They may think they do, but a deeper understanding of grammar really begins when you are forced to apply the rules you know to a foreign tongue. All of a sudden, you start to pay a lot of attention to sentence structure. Learning a foreign tongue is a good grammar refresher course, to say the least.
That is so true, Rusty. When I studied grammar in school, it just seemed like a dull excercise. It was only when I studied a foreign language that I realised what a phenominal machine language is. It's a grid that's largely transferable from one language to another.It's almost like a map of how our brains work. You learn your own language better by studying another tongue. Moreover, you learn more about your own country by spending time in another.

Last edited by poli; May 30, 2008 at 07:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old May 30, 2008, 07:36 PM
Tomisimo's Avatar
Tomisimo Tomisimo is offline
Davidísimo
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North America
Posts: 5,569
Native Language: American English
Tomisimo will become famous soon enoughTomisimo will become famous soon enough
Foreign language teachers really need to study language acquisition theory from a linguistic perspective. What things aid language acquisition/learning and what things don't. When you teach language, you're always teaching grammar, period. The question is, should you teach it explicitly or not? My opinion is that the explicit teaching of grammar rules actually hinders language learning for the majority of people. Why? Most people's knowledge of grammar doesn't go much beyond noun, verb and adjective. If you start throwing around terms like gender, declination, case, accusative, nominative, conjugation-- people's minds actually close off to what you're saying, since you've already alienated them. I've found for example when teaching Spanish I don't even mention the term gender. I say Spanish has four words for the word "the", and which one you use is determined by the word that follows it. La goes with casa, and el goes with perro etc. And after giving out lots of examples, someone will ask if la goes with all words that end in 'a' etc. and it gets a discussion going. But the important thing is to not mention gender, determiner, article, definite article, number, noun and all the "grammar" terms. On the other hand, if someone is comfortable with grammar and grammar terms, then an explicit study of grammar can be used as a shortcut to assimilate language. But it is no replacement for practice.
__________________
If you find something wrong with my Spanish, please correct it!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old May 31, 2008, 05:14 PM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
Filósofo y Poeta
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,239
Alfonso will become famous soon enough
I agree what you say, David. I would add that when you are teaching a language you should realise that the student doesn't need to learn grammar, but to acquire communication skills.
Nowadays, to focus on grammar is a very old fashioned teaching style, appropriate to teach Latin or ancient Greek, but useless to teach English, Spanish or a living language. Fortunately, things have changed a lot since the sixties, when enfoques comunicativos and enfoques nocio-funcionales started to spread out the world.

I would really appreciate some help with the phrases I highlighted in black. How do you say this in English? They are technical terms. I don't think it will be enough to attempt a literal translation. What I'm looking for are the current terms used in language teaching.

Thanks a lot in advance.
__________________
I welcome all corrections to my English.
Salu2 desde Madrid,
Alfonso

Last edited by Alfonso; June 02, 2008 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Correction thanks to David
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old May 31, 2008, 06:07 PM
Rusty's Avatar
Rusty Rusty is offline
Señor Speedy
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 10,658
Native Language: American English
Rusty has a spectacular aura aboutRusty has a spectacular aura about
I'm not a teacher, but I think some of the information below is helpful. Perhaps you can use the translations alone in your further research.

Enfoque Comunicativo
The communicative approach has its origins in a view of language and of grammar as descriptive rather than prescriptive. In other words, a view which sees language as continuously evolving, with the consequent freeing up of judgmental attitudes about what is "wrong" and "right."

Enfoque Socio-funcional
A socio-functional approach to 'acquiring' a language deals in learning how society functions and how to function in it.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old June 01, 2008, 12:50 AM
Tomisimo's Avatar
Tomisimo Tomisimo is offline
Davidísimo
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North America
Posts: 5,569
Native Language: American English
Tomisimo will become famous soon enoughTomisimo will become famous soon enough
Excellent translations Rusty, I think those are the correct terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfonso View Post
... or an alive language.
... or a living language.
... or a language that is alive.

I agree with what you say Alfonso. Acquiring communication skills is the goal of language learning/teaching, not a theoretical understanding of grammar. Have you read any of Steven Krashen's work-- the Monitor theory, the i+1 theory and his view on language acquisition? If you haven't, you'd probably find him quite intriguing.
__________________
If you find something wrong with my Spanish, please correct it!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old June 01, 2008, 02:07 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
Filósofo y Poeta
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,239
Alfonso will become famous soon enough
Thanks a lot, Rusty and David, for your answers.

Of course, Krashem is one of the greats. I think his theory that distinguish acquisition from learning is in the root of communicative approach.

Thanks a lot for your translations, Rusty. I gather that communicative approach is exactly the term I was looking for. But the other one you say is more in the field of pragmatics that in the nuance of the enfoque nocio-funcional. It's not socio-funcional but nocio-funcional what I meant. I'll try to find something similar.

Thanks a lot.
__________________
I welcome all corrections to my English.
Salu2 desde Madrid,
Alfonso
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old June 02, 2008, 02:41 AM
Tomisimo's Avatar
Tomisimo Tomisimo is offline
Davidísimo
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: North America
Posts: 5,569
Native Language: American English
Tomisimo will become famous soon enoughTomisimo will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfonso View Post
Thanks a lot, Rusty and David, for your answers.

Of course, Krashem is one of the greats. I think his theory that distinguishes acquisition from learning is in the root of the communicative approach.

Thanks a lot for your translations, Rusty. I gather that communicative approach is exactly the term I was looking for. But the other one you say is more in the field of pragmatics that in the nuance of the enfoque nocio-funcional. It's not socio-funcional but nocio-funcional what I meant. I'll try to find something similar.

Thanks a lot.
enfoque nocio-funcional = notional functional approach
__________________
If you find something wrong with my Spanish, please correct it!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmark this thread at:

Tags
grammar, krashen, language acquisition, language learning

 

Link to this thread
URL: 
HTML Link: 
BB Code: 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Site Rules

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Learning with /without grammar Nix Practice & Homework 9 July 31, 2008 06:14 PM
Grammar Check bleitzow Grammar 5 November 07, 2007 09:49 AM
Grammar check Julie Grammar 3 October 29, 2007 05:30 AM
I Like Grammar Grammar Man Introductions 3 October 02, 2007 09:21 PM
please check my grammar pescamos Grammar 1 July 24, 2006 01:04 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:26 AM.

Forum powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

X