Ponerse vs. Volverse + adjective meaning "to become"

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by ookami

(is this expression common in English? to take with pincers?)

With a pinch of salt.

[ookami]

Nice expression, thanks pjt33.

[chileno]

Maybe this will help, or not.

Ponerse rojo/roja = sonrojarse = to blush

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

There is a topic on the use of these verbs, you can take a look at it: http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=5370

Yes, there is that one and another ... but both are in Spanish, and I can't follow them closely enough to get an answer to my question....

Originally Posted by ookami

I don't know formal grammar about this, but a quick look reveals for me that it depends on the adjetive. To become "mudo" is something generally permanent, so it will be "te volviste mudo"(even if it's for one minute). To be red is something commonly not permanent, so the most common way to say it will be "te pusiste roja". Crazy has both, a permanent and a contingent popular designation, so in those examples you can use both, "ponerse/volverse loco". (obviously, you are not talking of "real crazy people" in this case). This diffuse "rule" is something I bealive can help to make this topic clear, but it has to be take with pincers. (is this expression common in English? to take with pincers?)

In summary, you can try to follow a rule with a certain porcentage of succes, but the practice will learn them to you... unless you start memorizing case by case

I don't follow you. How can something be "generally permanent" if it's even only for one minute. That defies the meaning of "permanent".... ???

Originally Posted by chileno

Maybe this will help, or not.

Ponerse rojo/roja = sonrojarse = to blush

Yes, that one I knew... It's the examples with "mudo/a" and "loco/a" that have me boggled...........

[ookami]

No, that doesn't defies the meaning of permanent, because the "permanent adjetive" has nothing to do with the "contingent situation", that's basically what I was saying: whichever is the situation, if the adjetive is permanent, you use "volver", etc. As if they were axiom terms and the valuation of them don't matter.

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Now, if you ask me, I think that when talking/living, you can consider all moments as "eternal", or "definitives", because when Alice "se volvió muda al ver a su prometido", you don't really know if that moment will end, I mean, if a future exist after that, maybe you only know you are there, you know you are "muda" while living it, but you can't know -at less not in a logical way- if that moment will be eternal or if it will end, etc. Yes, induction would say that there is a big probability of bla bla bla. But nothing more. So if you say "se volvió muda por una hora" for me, thinking it as a permanent situation, can be done.

But ok, to make it more """logical""" instead of using "permanent" and "contingent" we can use: "with high probability permanence" and "with low probability of permanence".
Language (so, all kinds of thinking) is just a labyrinth.

But the best thing we can all do about what I've especulate in this topic, is to forget it forever, or laught about it, and then forget it forever. I'm first

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Yes, that one I knew... It's the examples with "mudo/a" and "loco/a" that have me boggled...........

Ok, let me give another push.

You said:

- Marla se vuelve muda cuando le hablo de su novio. (Is that not a change of an emotional nature? I thought it would be "se pone"...)
- Cuando pierdo mis llaves me vuelvo loco. (This was actually a true/false question, so it makes me wonder if "loco" is not used in the same two senses we use it in English, literally crazy vs. figuratively crazy... Either way, it wouldn't be a sudden change, right? Losing one's keys would make one figuratively become crazy ... to find them.)
- La gente se vuelve loca cuando hay fiesta. (Same as the previous one.)
- Me pongo muy nerviosa cuando gritas. (I thought because this is something that happens suddenly it would be volverse...)

Marla se pone/vuelve muda cuando le hablo de su novio = Marla becomes (a) mute (person) when I talk to her about her fiancee.

Cuando pierdo las llaves me vuelvo/pongo (como) loco. = When I lose my key I become (like a) crazy (person)

Me pongo/vuelvo muy nerviosa cuando gritas = I become very nervous when you yell/scream.



But again, if you don't practice, and believe wrongly that this is it, you're making twice as hard. But that's you, not me.

[laepelba]

Nope. Still don't get it. In my mind, permanent is permanent. I don't understand how something can be temporarily permanent. (Maybe this is proof that mathematicians shouldn't attempt to learn second languages........)

(Edit: Or maybe it's just proof that THIS mathematician shouldn't attempt to learn a second language....)

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Nope. Still don't get it. In my mind, permanent is permanent. I don't understand how something can be temporarily permanent. (Maybe this is proof that mathematicians shouldn't attempt to learn second languages........)

We could talk for ages about the virtues of mathematics, but as an ex-mathematician I know that it can make life very difficult is other spheres such as learning other things. You say above Nope. Still don't get it. The problem is that you assume there is something to understand which is always there in maths but not always elsewhere. There are times when you just have to remember something which per se makes no sense.

My grammar book gives ponerse + adj. for a temporary change, and volverse for a long-lasting change usually involving a gradual process. Plus one exception of ponerse viejo which depressingly is not a temporal change: Mi abuela se ha puesto muy vieja.

I don't suppose that helps much.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

We could talk for ages about the virtues of mathematics, but as an ex-mathematician I know that it can make life very difficult is other spheres such as learning other things. You say above Nope. Still don't get it. The problem is that you assume there is something to understand which is always there in maths but not always elsewhere. There are times when you just have to remember something which per se makes no sense.

My grammar book gives ponerse + adj. for a temporary change, and volverse for a long-lasting change usually involving a gradual process. Plus one exception of ponerse viejo which depressingly is not a temporal change: Mi abuela se ha puesto muy vieja.

I don't suppose that helps much.

The "mathematician" bit was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek... I know you know that...

It's not that I'm actually expecting a black & white answer. I simply don't see how those two examples (the "muteness" and the "craziness") could in any way, shape, or form be considered "intense" or "permanent" in relation to some of the other examples I've seen. If I don't get two out of the only few examples I've been given, then I am absolutely certain that I will use this construction incorrectly. If I know for a fact that I'm going to use something incorrectly, I know myself, and I will avoid using it all together. That is the only reason I'm trying to wrap my arms around it.......

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by laepelba

The "mathematician" bit was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek... I know you know that...

It's not that I'm actually expecting a black & white answer. I simply don't see how those two examples (the "muteness" and the "craziness") could in any way, shape, or form be considered "intense" or "permanent" in relation to some of the other examples I've seen. If I don't get two out of the only few examples I've been given, then I am absolutely certain that I will use this construction incorrectly. If I know for a fact that I'm going to use something incorrectly, I know myself, and I will avoid using it all together. That is the only reason I'm trying to wrap my arms around it.......

I'm back again (hopefully without sounding mudo. )

I think I understand the logic so maybe I can translate it in a different way.

Categorize your adjectives whether they would USUALLY be permanent or short-lived.

mudo - permanent - the state of being mute - not much of a cure
loco - permanent - the state of being crazy - again, not much of a cure
nervioso - temporary - the state of being nervous - based on events
perdido - temporary - the state of being lost - can find way

Now, despite the context of the sentence, use the permanent adjectives with volverse and the temporary with ponerse, and let your sentence's context dictate whether it is actually permanent.

Cuándo trato de aprender ciencia, me vulevo loco. - It is clear I'm not actually going crazy, but I use volverse because in serious context, it would be a permanent transformation. To me, it is similar to exaggeration. Obviously science class isn't going to drive me legit crazy, so I'm really just exaggerating.