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Debe vs. Debe de

 

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  #11  
Old May 13, 2009, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacuba View Post
Hi Malila. I was also confused by the "must have been" construction and I posted the question in another thread. David answered:


Are these just different approaches to saying the same thing?

Thanks
Right, but look at these:


El cuarto debió estar muy sucio porque cuando salió estaba lleno de polvo.
The room must have been really dirty because when she came out she was covered with dust.


El cuarto debe haber estado muy sucio porque cuando salió estaba lleno de polvo.

So...

must have been = deber (in preterit) + estar (infinitive)

I must have been crazy ... = debí estar loco ...


Debo haber estado loco.

I = yo

must =deber

have = tener/haber

been
= estado/sido
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  #12  
Old May 13, 2009, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar View Post
@Tacuba: *ouch!*

I'm sure David must have a reason to avoid the preposition, but I would have used "deber de" in both cases.

El cuarto debió de estar muy sucio porque...

Debí de estar loco./Debí de haber estado loco.


...I was taught to differenciate the duty and the supposition this way.
Gracias Malila, pero ¿por qué "ouch"?

Me confundo con la ausencia de "haber" en las frases "El cuarto debió de estar sucio...." y "Debí de estar loco."

Lo de "should have", "would have", "must have", "could have" en español me vuelve loco.

Gracias por la ayuda
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  #13  
Old May 13, 2009, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chileno View Post
Right, but look at these:

El cuarto debió estar muy sucio porque cuando salió estaba lleno de polvo.
The room must have been really dirty because when she came out she was covered with dust.

El cuarto debe haber estado muy sucio porque cuando salió estaba lleno de polvo.

Debo haber estado loco.

I = yo

must =deber

have = tener/haber

been
= estado/sido
Hola Chileno. Entonces ¿los dos son correctos? "El cuarto debió de estar..." y "El cuarto debe haber estado...."?
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  #14  
Old May 13, 2009, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacuba View Post
Hola Chileno. Entonces ¿los dos son correctos? "El cuarto debió de estar..." y "El cuarto debe haber estado...."?
El primero deberia ser

el cuarto debió haber estado...

El cuarto debe haber estado...

See the difference with el cuarto debio de estar...?

It is not what those phrases in English mean. See?

Been = sido/estado (Participle)
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  #15  
Old May 13, 2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacuba View Post
Gracias Malila, pero ¿por qué "ouch"?

Me confundo con la ausencia de "haber" en las frases "El cuarto debió de estar sucio...." y "Debí de estar loco."

Lo de "should have", "would have", "must have", "could have" en español me vuelve loco.

Gracias por la ayuda

"Ouch" porque no me resulta muy fácil explicar cosas que para mí son naturales, y menos aún cuando puede haber una discrepancia con ejemplos contrarios.

Se podría haber dicho "El cuarto debió de haber estado sucio", pero "debió de estar sucio" es más breve. Insisto en el uso de la preposición porque se está haciendo una conjetura, no se enuncia un deber.

En cuanto a "should have", "would have", "must have", "could have", depende del contexto, pero aquí van unos ejemplos:


I should have finished my work, but I had been playing solitaire instead.
Debí/debería haber terminado mi trabajo, pero más bien estuve jugando solitario.

I would have finished my work if my boss hadn't been calling me every five minutes.
Hubiera/habría terminado mi trabajo si mi jefe no me hubiera estado llamando cada 5 minutos.

I must have finished my work in three days, but it's been over a week I started doing it.
Debí/debería haber terminado mi trabajo en tres días, pero ya pasó una semana desde que lo empecé.

I must have finished my work and I didn't realise it. (Ok, a bit crazy, but just to have a "debe de" example)
Debo de haber terminado mi trabajo y no me dí cuenta.

I could have finished my work (I had enough time to do it), but I received an urgent call in the afternoon (and had to go out).
Podría haber terminado mi trabajo (tenía tiempo suficiente para hacerlo), pero recibí una llamada urgente en la tarde (y tuve que salir).
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  #16  
Old May 13, 2009, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar View Post
"Ouch" porque no me resulta muy fácil explicar cosas que para mí son naturales, y menos aún cuando puede haber una discrepancia con ejemplos contrarios.

Se podría haber dicho "El cuarto debió de haber estado sucio", pero "debió de estar sucio" es más breve. Insisto en el uso de la preposición porque se está haciendo una conjetura, no se enuncia un deber.

En cuanto a "should have", "would have", "must have", "could have", depende del contexto, pero aquí van unos ejemplos:


I should have finished my work, but I had been playing solitaire instead.
Debí/debería haber terminado mi trabajo, pero más bien estuve jugando solitario.

I would have finished my work if my boss hadn't been calling me every five minutes.
Hubiera/habría terminado mi trabajo si mi jefe no me hubiera estado llamando cada 5 minutos.

I must have finished my work in three days, but it's been over a week I started doing it.
Debí/debería debiera haber terminado mi trabajo en tres días, pero ya pasó una semana desde que lo empecé.

I must have finished my work and I didn't realise it. (Ok, a bit crazy, but just to have a "debe de" example)
Debo de haber terminado mi trabajo y no me dí cuenta.

I could have finished my work (I had enough time to do it), but I received an urgent call in the afternoon (and had to go out).
Podría haber terminado mi trabajo (tenía tiempo suficiente para hacerlo), pero recibí una llamada urgente en la tarde (y tuve que salir).
La unica que pienso que esta mal traducida es la que esta en rojo. Por que? Porque no es condicional.
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  #17  
Old May 13, 2009, 11:13 PM
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The difference between "deber de" and "deber" is tenuous and extremely dialectal. I have literally asked dozens of native speakers over the years because this has been a question of mine for some time. Some native speakers say there are different uses for "deber" and "deber de"; others are emphatic that there is no difference. So I guess it comes down to dialectal differences; Choose the dialect you want to learn and learn it. For all intents and purposes, both are the same or very similar, but it really depends on where you are and who you are talking with.

Probably the most versatile translation for "must have been" is "debe haber estado/sido".

What Malila says-- that one is used for supposition and the other for duty-- probably applies to most of central Mexico and Mexico City.

Other native speakers have said there is absolutely no difference. For example:

Debe estar en la tienda.
Debe de estar en la tienda.
He is (supposed to/needs to/must) be in the store. [obligation]

Debe estar en la tienda.
Debe de estar en la tienda.
He (must be/probably is) in the store. [supposition]

Both sentences can have both meanings, the difference is in the intonation and how you say the sentence. For obligation, the spoken stress is on "debe", and for supposition, it's said more like a question, with the stress more on "tienda".

Anyway, that's my I'm sure not everyone will agree with me.
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  #18  
Old May 14, 2009, 04:46 AM
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That's what I tried to say with my short post. Some people insist on using the preposition where others say it isn't needed and some say both are correct usages at those times when one form is chosen over another.

Learn it the way the people use it in the area you live in.
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  #19  
Old May 14, 2009, 05:21 AM
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Maybe there are both ways of telling this, but the correct way is what Angelica said.
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  #20  
Old May 14, 2009, 06:34 AM
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It's back to presciptive and discriptive grammar.
I have heard deber de sentences where it clearly meant "should" rather than strong "have to", and I never paid attention to it until these posts. It makes sense to me that deber without the de is much more imperative.

Just read these two examples, and you will pick up the fine difference in meaning.
Debo ir al médico. (I have a lump on the side of my neck)
Debo de ir al médico (It's been a year)

Thanks to the person who asked the question, and thanks to all who responded.
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