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  #11  
Old May 23, 2010, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPablo View Post
Hello! While I get the possible variations indicated here, I don't think the option by the book is wrong at all. (It may be a bit dated, if anything).
You can do a Google search and find many examples of this subjunctive form. For example, If Grace was with us today, we would never had met Max and Sophia.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm sure this is simply wrong. The sentence is a hypothetical conditional, which requires a subjunctive "If Grace were with us" (at least in BrE ) and a conditional we would never have met. This passed conditional is never a pluperfect, it makes no sense.

(Note that in something like "If I had met Fred on Tuesday, I would have spoken to him" the had met is a perfect subjunctive, not an active pluperfect.)
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  #12  
Old May 23, 2010, 06:42 AM
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I concur with Perikles: "I would never had" is strongly marked and doesn't parse as anything sensible.
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  #13  
Old May 23, 2010, 08:38 AM
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Well, if "I would never had" is simply wrong, then how could it be that when you google it with quotation marks you get 29,300,000 hits and example after example of it being profusely used? Are all these people using it wrong?
If I knew I was getting into this conundrum, I would never had replied to this thread!
(Si supiera que me estaba metiendo en este acertijo desconcertante, ¡no habría contestado nunca a esta trama!)
Yes, maybe "I would have never replied to this thread!" is 'better', but the question remains, why would 'I would never had' be 'simply wrong'?
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  #14  
Old May 23, 2010, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPablo View Post
Well, if "I would never had" is simply wrong, then how could it be that when you google it with quotation marks you get 29,300,000 hits and example after example of it being profusely used? Are all these people using it wrong?
If I knew I was getting into this conundrum, I would never had replied to this thread!
(Si supiera que me estaba metiendo en este acertijo desconcertante, ¡no habría contestado nunca a esta trama!)
Yes, maybe "I would have never replied to this thread!" is 'better', but the question remains, why would 'I would never had' be 'simply wrong'?
I never realised this is such a contentious issue, as a Google search seems to indicate, for example here. It sounds wrong to me, in fact it sounds very wrong, and I gave my reason above.

A superficial count of the cases thrown up by Google on the first few pages of hits suggests to me that virtually every case of 'had' is American usage. I am just commenting on what I perceive to be correct BrE, which is my language. (The OP also stresses she is learning specifically BrE, which is why my reply was so dogmatic.) Each to his/her own.
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  #15  
Old May 23, 2010, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPablo View Post
Well, if "I would never had" is simply wrong, then how could it be that when you google it with quotation marks you get 29,300,000 hits and example after example of it being profusely used? Are all these people using it wrong?
If I knew I was getting into this conundrum, I would never had replied to this thread!
(Si supiera que me estaba metiendo en este acertijo desconcertante, ¡no habría contestado nunca a esta trama!)
Yes, maybe "I would have never replied to this thread!" is 'better', but the question remains, why would 'I would never had' be 'simply wrong'?
You can't really trust the number of Google hits when it's above about 50.000 (and maybe not even then).

The British National Corpus (BNC) has 4 instances of "would never had" and 621 instances of "would never have" in 100 million words.

The Corpus of Contemporary American English (COCA) has 9 instances of "would never had" and 2098 of "would never have" in 400 million words.

So, in spite of the impression that the Google counts give, it seems to be a rare error.
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  #16  
Old May 23, 2010, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPablo View Post
Well, if "I would never had" is simply wrong, then how could it be that when you google it with quotation marks you get 29,300,000 hits and example after example of it being profusely used? Are all these people using it wrong?
If I knew I was getting into this conundrum, I would never had replied to this thread!
(Si supiera que me estaba metiendo en este acertijo desconcertante, ¡no habría contestado nunca a esta trama!)
Yes, maybe "I would have never replied to this thread!" is 'better', but the question remains, why would 'I would never had' be 'simply wrong'?
I am not sure what's going on with google, but it is only an indication that possibly all those people are mistaken or correct, just that. t does not mean that indeed they are correct or incorrect.

The way I see it.

I have = Yo tengo/he

I had = Yo tuve o tenía/hube, había

I will have = Yo tendré/habré

I would have = Yo tendría/habría

I will have had = Yo habré tenido

I would have had = Yo habría tenido
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  #17  
Old May 24, 2010, 05:52 AM
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Well, thank you for all this data, gents. Definitely helpful.
I checked OED (Oxford English Dictionary) and while I was not about to read the 5 or 6 pages these illustrious scholars and lexicographers (Sir Murray and so forth) dedicate to "have", I saw under definition 40. 1905 Second-rate 'romanticism' as Mr. Marion Crawford would have us call it. And also1654 GATAKER: Sir R. Owen would gladie had me seated in Shropshire. (gladie, in the original, I take as an archaic form of "gladly")
So, for 'practical' purposes, I would stick to the "have" usage, specially if I happen to travel to "Kent-on-Essex" (sorry, Kent and Essex!)
In terms of 'understanding' it, while traveling along the cyberspace, I will be ready to 'understand' the version with "had".
Because, right or wrong, if "the world and his wife", "everybody and his brother" use both forms of expression, for all my jam and honey [in my fully unnn-qualified opinion] Adam and Eve [I believe] I would have no problem in understanding and getting myself understood...
On the other hand, on the counts given by BNC and COCA, while the 'had' form is very reduced in percentage, is there any data on it being 'wrong'? Is there any specific grammar reference that would be categorical in terms of explaining this issue?
Not that I am trying to beat a dead horse to death, but besides the "usage rate", it'll be good to have some authoritative reference on the matter. Although, like the Latin saw goes, "Vox populi, vox dei" (the voice of the people is the voice of God), my mother also used to say, “el número de necios es infinito”, (coincidentaly matching with Ecclesiastes, and Don Quixote) as well as "el sentido común es el menos común de los sentidos"...
At any rate, thank you for your attention to this.
(And yes, I agree, al César lo que es del César...)
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  #18  
Old May 24, 2010, 06:09 AM
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It is relevant to consider the context in which an answer is given. The OP of this thread asked the simple question Is X correct? Now almost every such query could result in an endless discussion about frequency of usage, but in this case here, a NO is a useful and fairly accurate answer because the exact answer is too confusing for the OP's purpose.
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  #19  
Old May 24, 2010, 06:34 AM
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I get the point. My only concern (right or wrong) is that the OP is using a book which may have 'bona fide' errors, or may have mistakes... but still she refers to that book as a source of 'valid' information.
If the validity of such reference is invalidated with cause, then, fine, she can throw the book in the wastebasket.
But if it is not absolutely wrong, then a book that may be totally fine, it's looked upon or regarded with suspicion at every turn... [...] (Well, I guess that helps to develop the student’s critical awareness...)
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  #20  
Old May 24, 2010, 09:12 AM
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I think I would start questioning the school or the library or whomever is responsible for having a book with so many errors in it. I don't think its the first error Irmamar has found in this book because that sentence is definitely wrong.

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