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#1
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Use of the pluperfect subjunctive
Okay, so my workbook is giving me some statements and examples that are confusing to me, and I am hoping to gain some clarification.
I'll start by quoting the introductory material in the book: Quote:
(1) I don't really understand the third example. I mean, I sort of see how the English and the Spanish are roughly equivalent. The main clause ("yo habría exigido...") makes sense to me as "I would have demanded..." But I don't see how the subjunctive clause would be "had been included" (roughly). Is that a decent translation? (2) My main question is about the statement "Note that the action in the pluperfect subjunctive (after que) happens before the action in the main clause." I don't think that is the case in any of the three examples. In the first, about the snow, it seems to me that the meteorologists did their thinking/forecasting BEFORE the snow happened for a long time... Right? And in the second, it actually states that Silvia bought the TVs BEFORE the sale ended (that's the point of the sentence, right?) And in the third example, the demanding would have happened BEFORE the service ended up being/not being included. What am I missing? Is it important which happened first, if I look for the tense in the main clause and it's past tense, then if a perfect subjunctive is required, then it should be the pluperfect. Right? (3) I've asked this question previously, but am still not so convinced of how it works. The final note to remember: " if the subject of the main clause and the dependent clause are the same, the infinitive is used in the dependent clause." Yet there are examples in the exercises like this: "Sus colegas reaccionaron como si hubieran visto a un extraterrestre." In that sentence, clearly "sus colegas" is the subject in both the main AND the dependent clause. Yet the pluperfect subjunctive is used, not the infinitive. Is it more about the connecting clause (here, "como si") than it is about the subjects? Argh! Thanks, all, for any suggestions you can give me!
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- Lou Ann, de Washington, DC, USA Específicamente quiero recibir ayuda con el español de latinoamerica. ¡Muchísimas gracias! |
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#2
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My :
1) '... had been included' would have been a better translation, yes. 2) In the first sentence, it snowed first, then the meteorologists were in disbelief that it 'had snowed' (not 'would have snowed') so much. In the second sentence, the connector is not a simple conjunction; it is a set phrase that always takes the subjunctive. So, the ruling you cited doesn't apply. In the third sentence, the bill was already printed (remember that the correct translation should have been 'had been printed') and it was being reviewed when the action in the main clause took place. 3) The connection between the clauses is the reason. The ruling you cited is for those cases when the connector is the conjunction 'que'. |
#3
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Thanks, Rusty. Explanations are clear enough, and I can see what you're saying about the examples. My ability to use this in my own sentences is still in question, though...
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- Lou Ann, de Washington, DC, USA Específicamente quiero recibir ayuda con el español de latinoamerica. ¡Muchísimas gracias! |
#4
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Quote:
- Los meteorólogos no creyeron que hubiera nevado por tanto tiempo. The meteorologists did not think it would have snowed for so long. (But it already has done) - Los meteorólogos no creyeron que nevera por tanto tiempo. The meteorologists did not think it would snow for so long. (The snow has not yet happened at that point) Am I right? |
#5
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Quote:
PS, Perikles, I've been waiting for you to jump in on the discussion about finite/infinite sets in the Mathematics thread....
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- Lou Ann, de Washington, DC, USA Específicamente quiero recibir ayuda con el español de latinoamerica. ¡Muchísimas gracias! |
#6
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Hmm, I'm not really so confident about set theory. It occurred to me that what Irma said was not inconsistent with your statement about an infinite set. I'll have another look. |
#7
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Quote:
1) The example is quite artificial. Reason demands an agent to include the service, so the normal sentence would be: Yo hubiera exigido que incluyeran el servicio en la cuenta.(translated exactly as the book states). Replacing it by "hubieran incluido" only adds a dramatic nuance like "now you can't do anything about it" and the impersonal forms has hidden implications ("it's all your fault" or "it's difficult to you to get such things done"). Remember "yo hubiera exigido eso" and "eso" is a thing, so the simple subjunctive tense (past subjunctive) is enough, and any arabesque there is trying to add information. 2) All the examples are pretty wrong. Sentence 1 strictly means those meteorologist being posted about the snowfall and they saying to the messenger "I don't believe you". The normal sentences are "los meteorólogos no creyeron que nevara por tanto tiempo" and "los meteorólogos no creyeron que nevaría por tanto tiempo" (they were wrong in their forecast / they were wrong in their forecast and they ignored or dismissed some hints about that snowfall would be as it really was). Sentence 2 contains unnecessary information: "Silvia había comprado los televisores antes de que la ''''venta especial'''' terminara" is done with imperfect meaning contextual information; in this case imperfect subjunctive. Already said about sentence 3. Different if you say "Silvia se apresuró demasiado y ya había comprado los televisores antes de que la oferta especial hubiera comenzado". But this finally ditches the questionable theory that the action in the secondary clause happens before that one in the main clause. 3) Valid with "que" and the same person : "De nada le hubiera servido que se hubiera disculpado" = "De nada le hubiera servido (el) haberse disculpado" = "Haberse disculpado no le hubiera servido de nada"
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#8
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Thanks, Perikles and Alec. I know that the examples in the book are often forced and, as you say, artificial. But they have to have some kind of examples of what they're talking about. Is the *pluperfect subjunctive* something that is not used much anyway?
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- Lou Ann, de Washington, DC, USA Específicamente quiero recibir ayuda con el español de latinoamerica. ¡Muchísimas gracias! |
#9
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I think this must depend on the kind of text. I admit to reading Harry Potter in Spanish as a brilliant introduction to conversations and some very interesting vocabulary. That text is littered with pluperfect subjunctives, because it's full of suppositions of the kind (book opened at random) De buena gana les hubiera dado la mitad de lo que tenía..
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#10
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Quote:
How about usage in spoken Spanish? Common? Not so much?
__________________
- Lou Ann, de Washington, DC, USA Específicamente quiero recibir ayuda con el español de latinoamerica. ¡Muchísimas gracias! |
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