Ask a Question

(Create a thread)
Go Back   Spanish language learning forums > Spanish & English Languages > Vocabulary > Idioms & Sayings


La masco pero no la trago

 

An idiom is an expression whose meaning is not readily apparent based on the individual words in the expression. This forum is dedicated to discussing idioms and other sayings.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old April 15, 2010, 05:10 PM
silopanna silopanna is offline
Ruby
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 62
silopanna is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
Those phrases are actually using an INDIRECT object pronoun, Dean. And they are used in Latin America.
Rusty,

Hmmm... So it is like saying "dale XYZ a Rafael" , le and Rafael being the indirect. Ok.

Actually, I usually speak the indirect like that correctly because that is the way they speak in Spain and that's where I learned. I can't always dissect the grammar, but I can usually think it out and, like I say, I usually say it right.

But I hae to admit that using lo and la as the direct object is something that I do stumble on. In fact, it is probably the only grammar that I will stumble on. The only other thing that I stumble on might be a lack of vocabulary, which I can deal with.

But this exchange has been helpful to me.

Dean
Reply With Quote
   
Get rid of these ads by registering for a free Tomísimo account.
  #22  
Old April 17, 2010, 03:44 AM
María José's Avatar
María José María José is offline
The Rebel Fairy
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Madrid
Posts: 1,765
Native Language: Spanish
María José is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty View Post
The correct object pronoun is the direct object pronoun. So, only lo or la should be used. That being said, however, it is possible to use le in Spain (but only if the object is masculine). This practice is called leísmo. It is not practiced elsewhere.
And not all over Spain. Like you, Rusty I know the rules, but in Madrid we always use those pronouns the wrong way. When I moved to Castilla La Mancha people corrected me constantly, and now I find it terribly confusing.
Anyway, I know there is léismo, laísmo and loísmo. But I think the case you mentioned is not actually leísmo, as it's the only instance in which the use of le for the direct object is allowed.
Do check with a more reliable source, though. It's just an idea.
__________________
"When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning of fairies."
from Peter Pan by J.M.Barrie

Last edited by María José; April 17, 2010 at 03:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old April 17, 2010, 10:47 AM
silopanna silopanna is offline
Ruby
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 62
silopanna is on a distinguished road
Rusty and Maria Jose,

I was once told by a teacher from Castilla that, all things said and done, le is for people and lo and la are for things. But this doesn't completely fit in with the grammar that you are exlaining to me.

Now, that teacher could have been fanatic or using some kind of past standard, so my mind is a clean slate at the moment.

But for example, in the sentence "lo masco pero no lo trago", I could say "le" also because Rusty has told me that "le" can be the masculine direct object.

But then in the sentence "la masco pero no la trago" I can't use "le" because le cannot be the feminine pronoun.

But then this isn't what the Castillian teacher told me, she just said that "le" is for people and "lo" and "la" are for things; and I went along my merry way. Now I am hearing something different.

Also, I have just seen in a Latin American dialogue book a sentence that went something like this: "Lo comunico con el señor X". The pronoun "lo" is certainly the object of the verb, but it refers to a person.

The monkey wrench for me is that Rusty has said that "le" cannot be a feminine objective pronoun. Otherwise, I could just use "le" for men and women, and "la" and "lo" for things.

Excuse me if I am splitting hairs, but I go on and on with Spanish, and I never got this down pat.

Thanks for the attention,

Dean
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old April 17, 2010, 06:05 PM
Rusty's Avatar
Rusty Rusty is offline
Señor Speedy
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 10,403
Native Language: American English
Rusty has a spectacular aura aboutRusty has a spectacular aura about
Dean, don't worry about splitting hairs. It's important, in my opinion, to know what the rules are. I also think it's important to know and mimic how the people use the language, grammar tossed aside.

To clearly state the rules:
Le is the third person singular INDIRECT object pronoun. It is used for all third persons (you (a usted), him (a él), and her (a ella), and any other masculine or feminine object that is the indirect recipient of the verb's action).
Lo is the third person singular DIRECT object pronoun. It is used for masculine third persons (you (usted) and him (él), and any other masculine object).
La is the third person singular DIRECT object pronoun used for feminine third persons only (you (usted) and her (ella), and any other feminine object).

Some people (I'll just say it that way) incorrectly use these pronouns, and grammarians have labeled the misusages.
When the direct object lo is substituted with le, this is called leísmo.
When the indirect object le is substituted with lo or la, this is known as loísmo and laísmo, respectively.

I recommend learning the rules, but at the same time I wouldn't want you to stick out like a sore thumb.
A donde fueres, haz lo que vieres.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old April 20, 2010, 05:19 PM
María José's Avatar
María José María José is offline
The Rebel Fairy
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Madrid
Posts: 1,765
Native Language: Spanish
María José is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by silopanna View Post
Rusty and Maria Jose,

I was once told by a teacher from Castilla that, all things said and done, le is for people and lo and la are for things. But this doesn't completely fit in with the grammar that you are exlaining to me.

Now, that teacher could have been fanatic or using some kind of past standard, so my mind is a clean slate at the moment.

But for example, in the sentence "lo masco pero no lo trago", I could say "le" also because Rusty has told me that "le" can be the masculine direct object.

But then in the sentence "la masco pero no la trago" I can't use "le" because le cannot be the feminine pronoun.

But then this isn't what the Castillian teacher told me, she just said that "le" is for people and "lo" and "la" are for things; and I went along my merry way. Now I am hearing something different.

Also, I have just seen in a Latin American dialogue book a sentence that went something like this: "Lo comunico con el señor X". The pronoun "lo" is certainly the object of the verb, but it refers to a person.

The monkey wrench for me is that Rusty has said that "le" cannot be a feminine objective pronoun. Otherwise, I could just use "le" for men and women, and "la" and "lo" for things.

Excuse me if I am splitting hairs, but I go on and on with Spanish, and I never got this down pat.

Thanks for the attention,

Dean
No need to apologize, your post is very interesting.

The problem is I am Spanish and I still self-correct myself when speaking... this is also a stumbling block for me.
I am almost sure that Rusty is right, though. You wouldn't use le for a woman if it was the direct object. You could say le for both men and women in the case of an indirect object.

Direct Object
LLámala (fem)
LLámale/ Llámalo (masc)
Indirect Oject
Dale el libro a Juan (masc)
Dale el libro a María (fem)
Hope this helps.
__________________
"When the first baby laughed for the first time, the laugh broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about, and that was the beginning of fairies."
from Peter Pan by J.M.Barrie
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old April 20, 2010, 06:29 PM
chileno's Avatar
chileno chileno is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Las Vegas, USA
Posts: 7,863
Native Language: Castellano
chileno is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by María José View Post
Direct Object
LLámala (fem)
LLámale/ Llámalo (masc)
Indirect Oject
Dale el libro a Juan (masc)
Dale el libro a María (fem)
Hope this helps.
In Chile we use it like this:

LLámala (fem)
Llámalo (masc) (ese llámale, we don't use it)

However, we use "llámele" (usted a él o ella) Is this still D.O.?

Indirect Object
Dale el libro a Juan (masc)
Dale el libro a María (fem)

Dele (usted) el libro a Juan or María. Is this still I.O.?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old April 20, 2010, 08:27 PM
poli's Avatar
poli poli is offline
rule 1: gravity
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In and around New York
Posts: 7,301
Native Language: English
poli will become famous soon enoughpoli will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by chileno View Post
In Chile we use it like this:

LLámala (fem)
Llámalo (masc) (ese llámale, we don't use it)

However, we use "llámele" (usted a él o ella) Is this still D.O.?

Indirect Object
Dale el libro a Juan (masc)
Dale el libro a María (fem)

Dele (usted) el libro a Juan or María. Is this still I.O.?
It is the indirect object.The a Juan/ a María helps define who the indirect object(le) is.
__________________
Me ayuda si corrige mis errores. Gracias.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old April 21, 2010, 08:50 AM
chileno's Avatar
chileno chileno is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Las Vegas, USA
Posts: 7,863
Native Language: Castellano
chileno is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
It is the indirect object.The a Juan/ a María helps define who the indirect object(le) is.
Ah, thank you Poli.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmark this thread at:

 

Link to this thread
URL: 
HTML Link: 
BB Code: 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Site Rules

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
¿Pero o sino? Sarah Grammar 6 March 13, 2010 11:00 AM
Si pero no ROBINDESBOIS Translations 2 December 14, 2009 06:45 PM
Trago DailyWord Daily Spanish Word 30 August 15, 2009 08:47 AM
Juntos pero no revueltos ROBINDESBOIS Idioms & Sayings 3 July 17, 2009 03:39 PM
Sino o pero bobjenkins Translations 13 May 18, 2009 10:11 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:30 AM.

Forum powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

X