#41  
Old September 15, 2010, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ookami View Post
... jajaja, nada que ver... Se nota que no leyeron el post atentamente. En esa respuesta ni siquiera me estaba refiriendo a los homosexuales, si no que comentaba el comentario de Elaina. Solo 0,02 personas sobre 100 (hiperbole) son de las que saben discutir y no intentan convencer o tener la razón como si de una competencia se tratara y si no la tienen, les tiemblan los simientos de sus ideales. A eso me refería.
I believe that my country have very marked and highlighted the gay culture, I don't know in other countries, for example U.S.A with the racism between the same American peoples, here the gay marriage is a thread with the new laws made for the Calderon government, then I go it your commentary, but I can enter in a polemic about the gay thread as I told you before, the people is free of decide the course of their life.


Don't worry if the people didn't read completely your post, the thread result very long and no ones have time in read all.
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Last edited by CrOtALiTo; September 15, 2010 at 12:47 AM.
   
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  #42  
Old September 15, 2010, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ookami View Post

Why? I think that it's easier this way than doing it face to face. You've more time to think, to correct, to analize what the other is saying to you, to search information, etc. It should be easier. The problem is another one: that "passion" you talked about. The passion of trying to convince, to have the truth, to defeat the other. Because if you just want to express your point of view and analize other's points of view, there shouldn't be any problems. But... only 0,02 of people... that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ookami View Post
... jajaja, nada que ver... Se nota que no leyeron el post atentamente. En esa respuesta ni siquiera me estaba refiriendo a los homosexuales, si no que comentaba el comentario de Elaina. Solo 0,02 personas sobre 100 (hiperbole) son de las que saben discutir y no intentan convencer o tener la razón como si de una competencia se tratara y si no la tienen, les tiemblan los simientos de sus ideales. A eso me refería.
Traduzco tu mensaje:

¿Por qué? Creo que es más fácil hacerlo así que cara a cara. Tienes más tiempo para pensar, para corregir, para analizar lo que los otros te dicen, para buscar información, etc. Debería ser más fácil. El problema es otro: esa “pasión” de la que hablabas. La pasión de intentar convencer, de poseer la verdad, de defender al otro. Porque si tú quieres expresar tu punto de vista, no debería haber ningún problema. Pero... solo el 0.02 de la gente... así.



Como comprenderás, por mucho que me haya enterado de qué hablabas, no entiendo la última frase (en negrita). Pero bueno, una vez aclarado, ya está.


Veo que septiembre viene calentito...
  #43  
Old September 15, 2010, 01:48 PM
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Sí, un día de frío y otro de calor Sí, en ese post es algo intelegible, no prentendía que la entendieran, solo tuve unas irrestibles ganas de que completen las dos o tres palabras (complementarias) de la oración . Pero luego que escribí la sentencia entera me pareció que era fácilmente entendible:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ookami View Post
"But maybe only 0,02% of people are that way"
Pero parece que solo el 0.02 por ciento de la gente es así.

Pero me equivoqué.
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Last edited by ookami; September 15, 2010 at 01:50 PM.
  #44  
Old September 16, 2010, 09:29 AM
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so no one here is against gay marriage? Good.
  #45  
Old September 16, 2010, 02:43 PM
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People who are against it, won't say it because of "group think" and don't want to be outcasted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

I'm not one of those people, and will give my real opinion:

If marriage was still worth something, then I'd be against it, but marriage is worthless now anyway, so I don't care if they marry or not.
  #46  
Old September 16, 2010, 02:50 PM
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Excellent link, Esperar. Thank you.
En España diríamos:
Un enlace de p*ta madre. Gracias, colega. (But I take I cannot write all the letters... although I have hear the expression from my "liberal" mother!)
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  #47  
Old September 16, 2010, 03:35 PM
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I'm not liberal or conservative, to be honest, I don't really like either side much.

Group think is very interesting. I feel it myself, but I say what I really think anyway. I have controversal opinions, but I won't say them here. Not because I'm afraid, but because I want to continue learning Spanish, and not to be harassed.

Quote:
so no one here is against gay marriage? Good.
This is very oppressive language, even if you don't mean it to be. Whether you mean it or not, what you are saying here is that people who don't agree with it are somehow bad, or their opinion is bad. This will trigger off "group think."

If you want people's REAL opinions, act as non judgmental as possible.
  #48  
Old September 16, 2010, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esperar View Post
I'm not liberal or conservative, to be honest, I don't really like either side much.
[Ok, but I used "liberal" not in the political sense, but in a loose one or rather in the sense of "free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners."]

If you want people's REAL opinions, act as non judgmental as possible.
I agree with that.
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  #49  
Old September 16, 2010, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Esperar View Post
If you want people's REAL opinions, act as non judgmental as possible.
While I agree with you in theory, in practice it's generally easy to see who is just "accepting" the status quo. In addition, the very act of damning same sex marriages as "bad" or "wrong" or any of the terms people usually use is extremely judgmental. In a society where people are supposed to be equal (again, this is an ideal, it is obviously not practiced), that means a man has the same rights as a woman, and vice versa. Thus, a man has just as much a right to marry a man as a woman does. Trying to prevent this is judging the people involved as less than worthy of marriage.

A favorite quote of mine is by Penn & Teller from their show "Bullshit" in the episode about the war on drugs. It can be paraphrased to suit this topic:
"This isn't about being for or against drugs [gay marriage]. It is about freedom. If you live in a free country you have the right to put anything you want into your own body [or marry whoever you want]."

I showed in one of my previous posts why religion cannot be considered in respect to state laws regarding marriage. I did this without judging the religions involved. They are perfectly allowed to have their own opinion on the matter. As the saying goes, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Because, as mentioned, it is an opinion -- something which we are all free to have. However, having an opinion about it does not mean they can justly try to prevent gay marriage any more than it means I would be allowed to enter their churches and picket for gay rights.

Taking it one step further, my opinion is that believing strictly in any religion is probably a mistake; that even if God exists, I doubt that any of our human religions accurately reflect his opinion and expectations of us. Does that give me the right to try to ban any religious ceremonies from the country? It certainly doesn't. Freedom of religion is one of the ideals the US flourished upon (1st amendment, if I'm not mistaken). Another of these was the ideal that all men are created equal, and that they have an inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Arguing that the state shouldn't allow same sex couples to marry is not just bigotry -- it is unconstitutional, whether it be on religious grounds or not. So, you'll have to forgive me if I don't feel bad for using terminology that might be considered "judgmental". Actually, I take that back. The truth is, you don't have to forgive me any more than I have to forgive people who want to ruin the lives of others. And I don't, so I wouldn't expect yours in return.
  #50  
Old September 16, 2010, 04:34 PM
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I'm an atheist, and I really don't like conservatives. It's not religious reasons I oppose gay marriage in theory, I oppose it because I think marriage is a foundation for families, and children need a mother and father.

Gays already have equal rights regarding this anyway, there's nothing stopping a gay man from marrying a woman, or a lesbian marrying a man.

Also, your analogy of taking drugs, and gay marriage is faulty. Not being able to take drugs legally is a violation of one's freedom with their own body, the state refusing to marry gays is not stopping them from doing anything. Gays and lesbians can still have a marriage ceremony if they want, it just won't be recognized legally.

Also, bear in mind that if you change the definition of marriage to include gays, you are changing what marriage is, and taking it away from those who are already married.

This has nothing to do with bigotry, I've known gay guys who are against gay marriage and say it makes no sense.
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