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la diferencia entre los verbos venir e ir

 

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  #11  
Old March 22, 2008, 09:01 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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You've got it, Rusty!

So, if I say companion instead of companionship the phrase is not correct nor clear?

Is there a better way to say ... it lacks the idea of companionship that these two verbs can convey to make it more clear?

You'v got the idea, how would you express it?

Thanks a lot!
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  #12  
Old March 22, 2008, 11:13 AM
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Correct. Companion cannot stand alone in your sentence. It isn't clear.

Right now I can't think of a better way to say what you said about the two verbs.
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  #13  
Old March 22, 2008, 12:15 PM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Thanks a lot, Rusty and Gramática. Now I think it's really clear for me.
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  #14  
Old March 22, 2008, 09:37 PM
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Alfonso,

Thanks for your additional explanation, I really appreciate it.
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  #15  
Old March 23, 2008, 11:00 PM
canyonff canyonff is offline
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this is just my 2 cents.

I think what alfonso's trying to convey might be better described as a state of mind, rather than using ones imagination.

in his example he used two different verbs, which could/should mean two different things, to convey the same meaning/action.

what i mean to say is, in english sometimes we do this too, and evidently in spanish speakers aswell. let me explain, i think this is what he was trying to say.

let's say there is a party, or a destination, that you KNOW you will go to or be at. In this state of mind, since you know you're going to attend or are going, you would consider yourself there. sort of like imagining, but more a state of mind since you KNOW it rather that THINK it.

now you leave your house, get by your car and another friend pulls up. this friend doesn't know about the party or isn't sure if they're going. You could say
"Man i'm going to this killer party, you want to come?" or you could say
"man i'm going to this killer party, you want to go?"

either way, in this context, the listener is going to know what you mean. so in this case, come and go actually mean the same thing as they are expressing the same action: moving location. But the speaker, has the option to use either because of a state of mind.


also in the same conversation that friend, who is now the speaker, could say either:
"Sure i'll come." or
"sure i'll go."

and both would be correct as they both express the same action [moving location].


so it's really dependent on your mindset. another example could be:

in the fall, we're going on a cruise. would you like to come with us? or
in the fall, we're going on a cruise. would you like to go with us?

again two different verbs, two different 'meanings,' conveying the same action.


i think that's what he meant to say. So pretty much I would say tomisimo's rule is a viable rule, and i was taught that rule in spanish 101, but under certain specific conditions the speaker may use either/or. i.e. when go and come will convey the same action regardless of time or location.

Last edited by canyonff; March 23, 2008 at 11:07 PM. Reason: quick addition
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  #16  
Old March 24, 2008, 06:11 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Hmmm, Canyonff, not exactly...

I think what you call verbs are better called tenses.

You make a difference between state of mind and imagination. I can only say that in Spanish imaginación works perfectly for what I mean. I'm not getting into connotations about these two words in English, so you can choose which one is the best to translate the Spanish imaginación.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canyonff View Post
let's say there is a party, or a destination, that you KNOW you will go to or be at. In this state of mind, since you know you're going to attend or are going, you would consider yourself there. sort of like imagining, but more a state of mind since you KNOW it rather that THINK it.

now you leave your house, get by your car and another friend pulls up. this friend doesn't know about the party or isn't sure if they're going. You could say
"Man i'm going to this killer party, you want to come?" or you could say
"man i'm going to this killer party, you want to go?"

either way, in this context, the listener is going to know what you mean. so in this case, come and go actually mean the same thing as they are expressing the same action: moving location. But the speaker, has the option to use either because of a state of mind.
Actually, in Spanish, to choose venir o ir in this context makes a difference:
  • Voy a la fiesta, ¿quieres venir? It's coherent.
  • Voy a la fiesta, ¿quieres ir? Here there is a contradiction. The other person can ask: ¿No has dicho que vas a la fiesta? ¿Por qué me preguntas que si voy yo? ¿Es que tú no vienes? Or, at least, the first person is not encouraging the other to go the party. The second one will understand that he has to go by himself. There is not idea of companionship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoff View Post
also in the same conversation that friend, who is now the speaker, could say either:
"Sure i'll come." or
"sure i'll go."

and both would be correct as they both express the same action [moving location].
In this case it's impossible to translate it literally into Spanish, since there is only one possibility:
  • Claro que voy. Either with you or by myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoff View Post
so it's really dependent on your mindset. another example could be:

in the fall, we're going on a cruise. would you like to come with us? or
in the fall, we're going on a cruise. would you like to go with us?

again two different verbs, two different 'meanings,' conveying the same action.
Again you can get the same contradiction already explained:
  • En Inviernno nos vamos de crucero. ¿Te gustaría ir con nosotros?
Either there is a contradiction (ir con nosotros instead of venir con nostros) or the one who speaks is not really inviting the other to go on a cruise. Sure, it's only a compliment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoff View Post
i think that's what he meant to say. So pretty much I would say tomisimo's rule is a viable rule, and i was taught that rule in spanish 101, but under certain specific conditions the speaker may use either/or. i.e. when go and come will convey the same action regardless of time or location.
What I think about this is that you've been taught a rule you will have very soon to forget to improve your Spanish. You can think it's a beginner's rule... I don't think so. It's more confusing than clarifying. It's an abstract with no relationship with reality. Sure, you can learn the rule and think it's really easy. No, it's not. Of course, it's easy to use venir and ir, but other way out, apart from the usage you do in English of to go and to come.

I'm not saying that all Spanish speakers use venir and ir the way I'm saying. But the mainstream does.
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  #17  
Old March 24, 2008, 10:27 AM
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Can a sandwich carry something?

Hi - I learn so much just from trying to follow your discussions, everyone - but I just have to ask re:

¿Qué lleva el sándwich? que ¿Qué trae el sándwich?

Does this mean, what is the sandwich made of? Thanks~
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  #18  
Old March 24, 2008, 10:32 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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You're right, Mxchana.
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  #19  
Old March 24, 2008, 10:47 AM
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I would say " ¿ Qué lleva el sandwich?" , but not "¿Qué trae?
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  #20  
Old March 24, 2008, 11:20 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Of course, Iris, I would also say ¿Qué lleva el sandwich? and hardly ¿Qué trae el sandwich? if I'm not trying to be ironic. We made that distinction upper or lower (depending on how you've got configured your interface).
But, it's also possible. In ¿qué trae el sandwich? there are some connotation easily conveyed: I'm sick and tired of eating always the same stuff; I'm sure I will not like the sandwich.
Of course, there can be other usages depending on the speaker, the context and the intonation. In general terms, as the Spanish speaker that you are, do you agree with me? Pls, tell me!
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Last edited by Alfonso; March 24, 2008 at 11:21 AM. Reason: Grammar
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