Past participles in Spanish as a noun in English

[Perikles]

I have come across a few past participles where I would expect an infinitive, in names like

pastillas de encendido

Annoyingly, I can't remember any others, but I have heard several. Is there a definitive list?

[JPablo]

Maybe there is one.

I don't know.

Oxford gives many examples,

Para un mejor acabado, aplica dos manos de pintura.

https://es.oxforddictionaries.com/tr...nglish/acabado

https://es.oxforddictionaries.com/tr...dido?locale=en

But the translation would be a noun, (like "ignition) not really an infinitive.

Am I missing something?

At any rate, I hope I give some lead.

Good to "see" you around!

¡Buen finde!

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by JPablo

But the translation would be a noun, (like "ignition) not really an infinitive.

Am I missing something?

In the example I cite, I would have expected "encender" not "encendido" which is why I mentioned the infinitive. The equivalent English has a variety of different forms, for example "for lighting a fire" (present participle) or "for the lighting of a fire" (gerund).

I just wondered whether there is some kind of rule which explains why a past participle is used which appears to be totally illogical.

I think I'm right in saying that Ancient Greek would have either a future infinitive or a future participle, both of which convey an intention that something will happen. This is logical, and it bothers me when it is not.

[aleCcowaN]

What's the "logical" problem here?

a la salida, abone lo consumido
estamos orgullosos de lo logrado
cuando se vaya, deje el tablero en posición de apagado
el automóvil tiene encendido electrónico
quién me quita lo bailado
ésta es la lista de todo lo gastado
eso délo por sabido
no hay que vivir en el pasado
lo engañaron porque es un confiado

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

What's the "logical" problem here?

a la salida, abone lo consumido
estamos orgullosos de lo logrado
cuando se vaya, deje el tablero en posición de apagado
el automóvil tiene encendido electrónico
quién me quita lo bailado
ésta es la lista de todo lo gastado
eso délo por sabido
no hay que vivir en el pasado
lo engañaron porque es un confiado

Quite simple - all the examples you give are perfect participles and they all represent something in the past. No problem there. But using the pp for something in the future is illogical to me. As my example of pastillas de encendido.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Quite simple - all the examples you give are perfect participles and they all represent something in the past. No problem there. But using the pp for something in the future is illogical to me. As my example of pastillas de encendido.

Which is the difference between "pastillas de encendido", "posición de apagado" and "encendido electrónico" in a vehicle which burns "destilado de petróleo"? I don't see participles, and even less "the past". I only see nouns derived from verbs that somewhat are still in need of being understood within the context of actions, pretty much like it is done by using -ente or -ante (analogue to English -ing), like in "aguas surgentes".

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I don't know if there is a professional linguistic explanation for that --I haven't found it, but the use of what verb form is used in these cases corresponds to what they were related to from the start.
Your examples point out rightly that these nouns are related to an activity, but I think the case of "pastilla de encendido" is different, because the idea of "encendido" (similar to Alec's examples) already existed before those "pastillas" were sold, so I guess that is why their name is associated to the past participle instead of the action of turning the car on. They could have been called "pastillas de encender" or "pastillas encendedoras", but I think they wouldn't have been immediately associated with the parts of a car involved in the process of "encendido".

[Perikles]

I think I must make more of an effort to make a list - I can't remember any others at present. Maybe I can then see a pattern (although I doubt it).

[poli]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I have come across a few past participles where I would expect an infinitive, in names like

pastillas de encendido

Annoyingly, I can't remember any others, but I have heard several. Is there a definitive list?

I think the noun is implied. The noun being wood or some other combustible. The original idea is pastillas de madera encendida (pardon me if charcoal is composed of something other than charred wood)
Una jarra de encurtidos en lugar de una jarra de pepinos encurtidos. Here, we have an example that corresponds to English. A jar of pickled cucumbers is often called a jar of pickles, at least in the USA. Instead of
jar of pickleds as used in Spanish, English converts the past participle into the noun pickles. Tostados and toasts (we would never used toasteds) is another example. Both tostados and toasts imply toasted breads/panes tostados.

In Spanish, often the past participle is an adjective that becomes a noun when the noun is implied. I can't think of a case where this occurs in English.

I don't know if I'm missing the point here, but the use of the past participle as a noun when the noun is implied is commonplace in Spanish. I remember a classic movie called "Los Olvidados" . The title was translated "The Forgotten Ones."
I just remembered that there are cases in English where the Spanish practice is used. There's a famous play called "A Moon for the Misbegotten". Other examples: the disenfranchised, the unemployed, the uneducated. It's much less commonly used in English, but it exists.

[aleCcowaN]

Think of visar.

Tráigame el sello de visar (bring me the stamp for visaing)
Tráigame el sello de visado (bring me the passport with the visa stamped)