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  #11  
Old June 02, 2008, 08:27 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisimo View Post
enfoque nocio-funcional = notional functional approach
Thanks a lot, David. I've been researching the term, and this is exactly what I meant. Anyway, it's not clear that it's an approach, but a syllabus, that's to say, a way to organise the topics the learner must take. Nevertheless, this last idea is a questioned one, or, at least, an objection that some people do to the fact that it was formerly considered an approach to language learning theory. This debate hasn't been held in the Spanish environment, although it's quite clear that un enfoque comunicativo y un enfoque nocio-funcional are not synonymous nor equivalents.
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  #12  
Old June 02, 2008, 12:02 PM
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Tomisimo Tomisimo is offline
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Yes, you're right. When I was looking around to find the term, I found that the notional functional method is a way to organize a course, not really a teaching method.
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  #13  
Old June 04, 2008, 06:21 AM
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No quiero estar de desacuerdo con vds. que dicen que uno puede aprender un segundo idioma sin aprender las leyes gramáticas, pero no entiendo como. Segun mi conocimiento, las reglas gramaticas son los
herramientos (o miembros) del idioma. Cuando uno aprende como
funciona in coche tiene que entender la diferencia entre la sordina, la
llanta, y bujia. Es cierto que un cirujano tiene que saber como funciona el higado y riñon. Me parece igual en el estudio de la lengua.

Quiero saber como puede aprender un idioma sin entender como
funciona sus partes.

Gracias

Ruego que me corrija.

Last edited by poli; June 04, 2008 at 08:42 AM.
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  #14  
Old June 04, 2008, 11:22 AM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
No quiero estar en desacuerdo con vds. que dicen que uno puede aprender un segundo idioma sin aprender las leyes gramaticales, pero no entiendo cómo. Según mi conocimiento, las reglas gramaticales son las herramientas (o miembros) del idioma. Cuando uno aprende cómo funciona un coche tiene que entender la diferencia entre la sordina, la llanta, y la bujía. Es cierto que un cirujano tiene que saber cómo funciona el higado y el riñon. Me parece igual en el estudio de la lengua.

Quiero saber cómo se puede aprender un idioma sin entender cómo funcionan sus partes.

Gracias

Ruego que me corrija.
Actually, neither David nor I did say that one can learn a second language without learning its grammar, but, of course, it's possible, as many non alphabetised people do when migrating to other countries.
There are also people who never go to a school of languages and, however, they learn a second language. It's been so most of the time of the History. The emphasis in learning grammar to acquire a second language is a consequence of the structuralism studies on the 50's, and, more ancient, from the beginning of classical philology, when Latin and ancient Greek started to be studied as dead objects.

It's so deep inside the mind of any learner that most of the people even don't conceive the possibility of acquiring a language without learning its grammar.

Anyway, notio-functional and communicative approaches are in the middle of the term. They don't rule out grammar. Neither they start by grammar for the learner to be able to speak, but they start by speaking for the learner to guess some very simple grammar rules. This difference is said to be between a deductive approach (grammar, traditional) and an inductive (communication, modern) approach to language learning.
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Last edited by Alfonso; June 04, 2008 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Correction thanks to sweet Iris
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  #15  
Old June 04, 2008, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfonso View Post
Actually, neither David nor I did say that one can learn a second language without learning its grammar, but, of course, it's possible, as many non alphabetised(illiterate) people do when migrating to other countries.
There are also people who never go to a school of languages and, however, they learn a second language. It's been so most of the time through (in) History. The emphasis on learning grammar to acquire a second language is a consequence of the structuralist studies of the 50's, and, before that (previously), from the beginning of classical philology, when Latin and ancient Greek started to be studied as dead objects.

It's so deep inside the mind of any learner that most people don't even conceive the possibility of acquiring a language without learning its grammar.

Anyway, notio-functional and communicative approaches are in the middle of the term. They don't rule out grammar. Neither do they start with grammar for the learner to be able to speak, but they start by speaking for the learner to guess some very simple grammar rules. This difference is said to be between a deductive approach (grammar, traditional) and an inductive (communication, modern) approach to language learning.
En rojo para fastidiar.
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  #16  
Old June 04, 2008, 11:45 AM
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Thanks a lot, Iris, for your superb corrections.
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  #17  
Old June 04, 2008, 12:02 PM
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Bueno, lo accepto. El matriz de idioma es innata en todos los seres humanos. Pero, cuando comencé a aprender español, nos enseñaba diálogos sin enseñar nada mas. El curso consistía en memorización y repetición. Francamente lo odiaba porque casi no entendía lo que repetía. Además los dialogos eran malos. Por ejemplo (todavía recuerdo): "Mi tocadisco es descompuesto" Sentía mas seguro cuando aprendí las palabras individuals y sus funciones en la frase.

Last edited by poli; June 04, 2008 at 12:09 PM.
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  #18  
Old June 04, 2008, 12:11 PM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Poli, your are describing an even worse method of teaching based upon memory and repetition. I think nowadays very few people use that method. In Spain a lot of people started learning English with the following sentence: My tailor is rich; and, after that: My tailor is not rich. As you can see, very productive and helpful sentences.
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  #19  
Old June 04, 2008, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
Bueno, lo acepto. El matriz del idioma es innato en todos los seres humanos. Pero, cuando comencé a aprender español, nos enseñaban diálogos sin enseñar nada mas. El curso consistía en memorización y repetición. Francamente lo odiaba porque casi no entendía lo que repetía. Además los dialogos eran malos. Por ejemplo (todavía recuerdo): "Mi tocadiscos es descompuesto" Me sentí más seguro cuando aprendí las palabras individuales y sus funciones en la frase.
Nunca he escuchado el matriz o la matriz del idioma, pero me imagino lo que quieres decir. Yo diría: la capacidad para hablar / para usar el lenguaje.
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  #20  
Old June 04, 2008, 12:41 PM
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Si, capacidad es correcto, pero escogí matriz porque sorspecho que esa capacidad es algo mecánico en nuestros cerebros con reglas y funciones básicas aplicable a todos los idiomas.
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