Translating a simple paragraph (Exercise 6-9)

[laepelba]

Continuing to work through a book of basic Spanish grammar exercises, in an attempt to fill in some of the "holes" in the learning that I've done so far. It has been (I believe) very fruitful so far.

One of the exercises in the chapter covering the imperfect and preterit tenses more in depth than the previous chapters asks me to translate a simple paragraph from English to Spanish. I did okay for the most part - only needed to look up a small handful of words, and the majority of the errors I made (according to their "answer" in the back of the book) were prepositions, etc. In fact, I feel like my mistakes were quite a bit more simple this time... (No need to comment on my erroneous use of "fue" instead of "eran" in the time phrases.... )

I want to ask some questions, though. So I'm going to include here (1) the original English paragraph, (2) my original translation, and (3) the "corrected" translation. I will indicate my questions at the bottom of this post.

Original English Paragraph	My First Attempt at Translation	The "Corrected" Translation
Ana was twenty-eight years old when she married Marco. She became a nurse a month before the wedding. The ceremony was magnificent. Marco's family traveled from California to the celebration. It was eight o'clock when the reception started at the hotel. While the guests arrived, the waiters served some drinks. It was eight thirty when Ana and her husband arrived at the party. At that moment, the orchestra began to play a beautiful melody, and Ana's mother started to cry. Ana's mother lived in Germany and didn't see her daughter often. All mothers cry at their daughter's weddings. Despite the tears, the guests enjoyed the evening. It was twelve thirty when the newlyweds decided to leave on their honeymoon. And do you know where they went? To Germany!	Ana tenía veintiocho años cuando se cansó a Marco. Ella llegó a ser una enfermera un mes antes de la boda. La ceremonía fue esplendida. La familia de Marco viajó de California a la celebración. Fue las ocho en punto cuando comenzó el banquete de boda al hotel. Mientras que los invitados llegaban, los camareros servieron algunas bebidas. Fue las ocho y media cuando llegaron Ana y su esposo a la fiesta. En ese momento, la orquesta empezó a tocar una melodía bonita, y la madre de Ana empezó a llorar. La madre de Ana vivía en Alemania y no veía su hija con frequencia. Todas las madres lloran a las bodas de sus hijas. A pesar de las lágrimas, los invitados se disfrutaron la noche. Fue las doce y media cuando los recienes casados decidieron a salir de su luna de miel. Y ¿sabes dónde fueron? ¡A Alemania!	Ana tenía veintiocho años cuando se cansó a con Marco. (1) Ella llegó a ser una Ana se hizo enfermera un mes antes de la boda. La ceremonía fue (2) esplendida magnífica. La familia de Marco viajó (3) de desde California a para la celebración. Fue Eran las ocho (4) en punto de la noche cuando (5) comenzó empezó (6) el banquete de boda la recepción al en el hotel. Mientras que los invitados llegaban, los camareros servieron (7) algunas bebidas. Fue Eran las ocho y media cuando (8) llegaron Ana y su esposo llegaron a la fiesta. En ese momento, la orquesta empezó a tocar una melodía bonita, y la (9) madre mamá de Ana (10) empezó se puso a llorar. La (9) madre mamá de Ana vivía en Alemania y no veía (11) su hija con frequencia a Ana a menudo. Todas las madres lloran (12) a las bodas en la boda de sus hijas. A pesar de las lágrimas, los invitados (13) se disfrutaron la noche. Fue Eran las doce y media cuando los (14) reciénes casados decidieron a salir de su luna de miel. Y ¿ ¿Y sabes (15) adónde fueron? ¡A Alemania!

My questions:
(1) Is what I said here okay, too? I think that they mean the same thing...
(2) Are "esplendida" and "magnífica" interchangeable here?
(3) "desde" y "para" - I had "de" and "a". When I talk to my students about problem numbers in homework assignments, I say "de 30 a 40". Can it not be said the same way with locations? Is the difference that it's locations?
(4) Can what I said be okay, too?
(5) Please, please, please explain to me how I know when to use empezar vs. comenzar. I can never tell. Please!!
(6) Are these interchangeable here?
(7) Was this an error on the part of the answer key? The phrase was "some drinks" in the original English. Why didn't they use some form of "algunas" in the answer?
(8) Syntax. Syntax. Syntax. I'm trying to get a feel for some of the differences in syntax between English sentence structure and Spanish. Is what I said okay? Or does the verb in this phrase HAVE to go after the subject?
(9) (Two times.) "Madre" / "mamá" ... difference is formality? Does it really matter in this context?
(10) I don't understand this one at all. Is this simply something that is said with "llorar"? ("Ponerse a llorar"? Is it used with other verbs than llorar?)
(11) Is what I said okay here (except that I forgot (again!) the personal "a")?
(12) Singular and not plural? Really? Why?
(13) Isn't a pronoun like this used sometimes with disfrutar? When?
(14) Again - why singular and not plural for the first part...?
(15) What is the difference between "dónde" and "adónde"?

Thank you VERY much for any help you can give me!

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Ana tenía veintiocho años cuando se cansó a con Marco. (1) Ella llegó a ser una Ana se hizo enfermera un mes antes de la boda. La ceremonía fue (2) esplendida magnífica. La familia de Marco viajó (3) de desde California a para la celebración. Fue Eran las ocho (4) en punto de la noche cuando (5) comenzó empezó (6) el banquete de boda la recepción al en el hotel. Mientras que los invitados llegaban, los camareros servieron (7) algunas bebidas. Fue Eran las ocho y media cuando (8) llegaron Ana y su esposo llegaron a la fiesta. En ese momento, la orquesta empezó a tocar una melodía bonita, y la (9) madre mamá de Ana (10) empezó se puso a llorar.

La (9) madre mamá de Ana vivía en Alemania y no veía (11) su hija con frequencia a Ana a menudo. Todas las madres lloran (12) a las bodas en la boda de sus hijas. A pesar de las lágrimas, los invitados (13) se disfrutaron la noche. Fue Eran las doce y media cuando los (14) reciénes casados decidieron a salir de su luna de miel. Y ¿ ¿Y sabes (15) adónde fueron? ¡A Alemania!

(1) Is what I said here okay, too? I think that they mean the same thing...
-- "Llegó a ser" is used when you have talked about someone since their childhood, or when you are describing the long and difficult path before she became a nurse.
"Se hizo enfermera" refers only to her obtaining a nurse title right before she married Marco.

(2) Are "esplendida" and "magnífica" interchangeable here?
-- They are, but "espléndido" is less often heard.

(3) "desde" y "para" - I had "de" and "a". When I talk to my students about problem numbers in homework assignments, I say "de 30 a 40". Can it not be said the same way with locations? Is the difference that it's locations?
-- "De - a" is used in same "objects" (from a place to another place, from a number to another). Here they came from California to an event (not a place). Besides, they came from California with a purpose (to attend the wedding).

(4) Can what I said be okay, too?
-- Yes, but please note, it's either "en punto" or "de la noche"... "ocho en punto de la noche" is too much precision.
But I think here they got rather creative about inserting a night that is not mentioned in the original paragraph.

(5) Please, please, please explain to me how I know when to use empezar vs. comenzar. I can never tell. Please!!
-- ¡No sufras! There is no mystery between "comenzar" and "empezar": they're both synonyms. "Empezar" is much more widely used though.

(6) Are these interchangeable here?
-- "La recepción" was the most logical thing to say, since that was the word used at the English paragraph... but you could have said "banquete (de boda)", it doesn't matter.

(7) Was this an error on the part of the answer key? The phrase was "some drinks" in the original English. Why didn't they use some form of "algunas" in the answer?
-- No error. "Some" isn't always translated. (It is much more important in English than in Spanish).
If you ask me, I'd use "las bebidas", because one expects to drink and toast in such a party. But "algunas bebidas" is not wrong.
Don't be worried yet about knowing when you can skip the article... it will come with experience.

(8) Syntax. Syntax. Syntax. I'm trying to get a feel for some of the differences in syntax between English sentence structure and Spanish. Is what I said okay? Or does the verb in this phrase HAVE to go after the subject?
-- Spanish syntax is flexible, but there's euphony again.
"Eran las ocho y media cuando llegaron Ana y su esposo." would have been fine, but "a la fiesta" changes the rhythm of the sentence.
In that kind of sentences, try to keep the verb after the subject... I think that will work most of the times.

(9) (Two times.) "Madre" / "mamá" ... difference is formality? Does it really matter in this context?
-- There is nothing in the paragraph that tells how formal you have to be, but I assume that they're teaching you the most usual way of saying things.
I believe your book teaches Mexican Spanish. Here you will hear "mamá" more often than "madre". Since many insults use the word "madre", "mamá" sounds kinder.

(10) I don't understand this one at all. Is this simply something that is said with "llorar"? ("Ponerse a llorar"? Is it used with other verbs than llorar?)
-- "Se puso a llorar" and "empezó/comenzó a llorar" are the same.
And yes, "ponerse a hacer algo" is used with many verbs to say someone started to do something.
· Como no había luz, me puse a hablar por teléfono.
Since there was a blackout, I started to talk on the phone.
· Al aspirar el polen me puse a estornudar.
When I breathed the pollen I started sneezing.
· Me puse a estudiar español mientras esperaba al dentista.
I started to study some spanish while I was waiting for the dentist.

(11) Is what I said okay here (except that I forgot (again!) the personal "a")?
-- It would have been correct if you had written "con frecuencia".

(12) Singular and not plural? Really? Why?
-- "Las bodas de sus hijas" would be understood as if daughters married many times.
Convention (contrary to what actually happens) says THE wedding has to be only one in a lifetime.
"La boda de sus hijas" states clearly it's only one wedding in the life of each daughter.

(13) Isn't a pronoun like this used sometimes with disfrutar? When?
-- Different constructions: Impersonal: "Algo se disfruta"/ Personal: "uno disfruta algo"
· La playa se disfruta cuando hace calor.
The beach is enjoyable when it's hot.
· Cuando se está enfermo, nada se disfruta igual.
Nothing is so enjoyable when being sick.
· Disfruté mucho el concierto.
I enjoyed the concert a lot.
· Disfruta la vida, es muy corta!
Enjoy life, it's too short!

(14) Again - why singular and not plural for the first part...?
-- "Recién" is an adverb. Only adjectives must correspond to gender and number.
Btw: Salir de luna de miel = to leave on their honeymoon
"Salir de su luna de miel" = to leave (to get out of) their honeymoon
♪ Aha-aa ♫ "decidieron a" ♪ agaa-ain ♫

(15) What is the difference between "dónde" and "adónde"?
-- I think Irma can tell you a formal reason for this, but:
Ir a un lugar => ¿adónde? (implies movement)
Estar en un lugar => ¿dónde? (to stay steady)
(Remember "a la puerta" and "en la puerta"?)
Venir de un lugar => ¿de dónde?


*** Finally, check also some more spelling mistakes:
• "Se casó", not "cansó" ("cansarse" = "to get tired")
(In any case, "se cansó de Marco", but thats a few years after the marriage)
• "Ceremonia", not "ceremonía".
• "Sirvieron", not "servieron"

[bobjenkins]

(In any case, "se cansó de Marco", but thats a few years after the marriage)
¿Somos tan malos ?

Y muchísimas gracias a las dos para tocar el tiempo de escribir y contestar porque hay otra gente que lo lee y aprende de vosotros

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

(3) "desde" y "para" - I had "de" and "a". When I talk to my students about problem numbers in homework assignments, I say "de 30 a 40". Can it not be said the same way with locations? Is the difference that it's locations?
-- "De - a" is used in same "objects" (from a place to another place, from a number to another). Here they came from California to an event (not a place). Besides, they came from California with a purpose (to attend the wedding).
- So the "purpose" gives reason for "para" (instead of my "a"). Why the "desde" instead of "de"?

(4) Can what I said be okay, too?
-- Yes, but please note, it's either "en punto" or "de la noche"... "ocho en punto de la noche" is too much precision.
But I think here they got rather creative about inserting a night that is not mentioned in the original paragraph.
- What would be a more common way to say it? I used "en punto" because it was used in a previous exercise. I actually leaned toward using "de la noche".

(14) Again - why singular and not plural for the first part...?
-- "Recién" is an adverb. Only adjectives must correspond to gender and number.
Btw: Salir de luna de miel = to leave on their honeymoon
"Salir de su luna de miel" = to leave (to get out of) their honeymoon
♪ Aha-aa ♫ "decidieron a" ♪ agaa-ain ♫
- I corrected the "decidieron a"...... I'm still trying to get a feel for when and when not to use a preposition........

*** Finally, check also some more spelling mistakes:
• "Se casó", not "cansó" ("cansarse" = "to get tired")
(In any case, "se cansó de Marco", but thats a few years after the marriage) DOH! And I am always on the lookout for that one, knowing that it could be an embarrassing mistake to make. And I made it. Sheesh!!
• "Ceremonia", not "ceremonía". Funny - I had it correct on my handwritten copy. I typed it wrong here. That's silly.
• "Sirvieron", not "servieron" Again, DOH!
Thanks for catching these spelling errors...........

Thank you, as always, for putting so much time into working through my questions, Malila!!

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

3) So the "purpose" gives reason for "para" (instead of my "a"). Why the "desde" instead of "de"?
- Not only, but also that place — event didn't accept "a".
"Vinieron de California para la boda" could have been ok, but "desde" adds emphasis on the fact that they had to come from another city for the wedding.

4) What would be a more common way to say it? I used "en punto" because it was used in a previous exercise. I actually leaned toward using "de la noche".
- It depends on the situation.
"En punto" is used to offer precision on the time at which something happens. It's important if someone asks you what time it is, or if punctuality actually matters.
"A las ocho de la noche" can be a few minutes before or after. I think one doesn't really know at what time exactly a party starts.
Now I need your help here... In Spanish, adding "en punto" makes it a "formal" way to say that hour when you don't actually need that precision. Would it be the same with "o'clock" in these sentences? :
· Ya son las diez de la mañana y aún estoy en la cama.
It's already ten o'clock (?) in the morning (?) and I'm still in bed.
· En esta casa comemos a las tres de la tarde.
In this house we have lunch at three o'clock (?) in the afternoon (?).

4) I corrected the "decidieron a"...... I'm still trying to get a feel for when and when not to use a preposition........
- Do you remember your exercise with "ya", when you wrote a sentence for each use of the word? Maybe a few similar exercises would be good for uses on prepositions. And there will have to be some memorizing about the kind of prepositions that fit with some verbs.




@Bob: Nah... él podía haberse cansado de ella primero.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

4) What would be a more common way to say it? I used "en punto" because it was used in a previous exercise. I actually leaned toward using "de la noche".
- It depends on the situation.
"En punto" is used to offer precision on the time at which something happens. It's important if someone asks you what time it is, or if punctuality actually matters.
"A las ocho de la noche" can be a few minutes before or after. I think one doesn't really know at what time exactly a party starts.
Now I need your help here... In Spanish, adding "en punto" makes it a "formal" way to say that hour when you don't actually need that precision. Would it be the same with "o'clock" in these sentences? :
· Ya son las diez de la mañana y aún estoy en la cama.
It's already ten o'clock (?) in the morning (?) and I'm still in bed.
· En esta casa comemos a las tres de la tarde.
In this house we have lunch at three o'clock (?) in the afternoon (?).

Well, I'm not exactly sure what your question is getting at, but let me give you a few examples of what I think you want...

I don't necessarily use "o'clock" to indicate an approximate time. If I want to be sure of a specific time, I'd add a phrase like "sharp" or "exactly" or "on the dot":
- The train leaves at ten o'clock sharp.
- My lunch hour begins exactly at ten-thirty. (Seriously, they have us eating lunch at ten-thirty at work. Who is hungry for LUNCH at ten-thirty!?)
- The movie will begin at six on the dot.
- The wedding will begin precisely at 7:30. Be there on time!

If you want to imply approximation you can add other phrases, like "about" or "around" or "approximately":
- If you're coming to my party Friday evening, be there around six.
- I got out of bed this morning at about five o'clock.
- I go to the Spanish church service, and they tend to start at approximately twelve-thirty. Most people arrive there by one o'clock or so. (I'm obviously the only gringo there, precisely at 12:25!)

As for your examples:
- It's ten o'clock in the morning, and I'm STILL in bed. (There's something that doesn't feel right about how you said "already ten o'clock" ... it's the "already" part that I am not sure of. I mean, it makes sense, and is grammatically okay. It just sounds a bit off. But you DO want to say "in the morning" in this case because it could potentially be ten o'clock at night and you're already in bed for nighty-night time.)
- In this house we have lunch at three. OR In this house we have lunch at three o'clock. (You don't really need to say "o'clock" because that's assumed. You could say "in the afternoon", but it's totally not necessary because you wouldn't have lunch in the madrugada, right?) <------how's that for some good Spanglish!?

4) I corrected the "decidieron a"...... I'm still trying to get a feel for when and when not to use a preposition........
- Do you remember your exercise with "ya", when you wrote a sentence for each use of the word? Maybe a few similar exercises would be good for uses on prepositions. And there will have to be some memorizing about the kind of prepositions that fit with some verbs.

Yes - I ought to go back there and re-read that thread. It also connects to some of the other mistakes that have been corrected for me recently, and to a thread in which Irmamar was talking about transitive verbs using an infinitive verb AS the direct object.... which I still don't quite get... I'll work on it. I saw the mistake, though, and made a mental note to work on it.....

Thanks again!!

[bobjenkins]

I corrected the "decidieron a"...... I'm still trying to get a feel for when and when not to use a preposition........

Funny that you ask say that because I was just looking in the complete spanish grammar book about this, there are about 50 verbs on page 290-291 that require the prepositions "a" y "de"

!Qué raro que dices eso! Porque solamente ahora he terminado de leer sobre eso en el libro de la gramática completa española, hay unos verbos comunes que requieren las preposiciones "de" y "a" en páginas 290-291

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by bobjenkins

Funny that you ask say that because I was just looking in the complete spanish grammar book about this, there are about 50 verbs on page 290-291 that require the prepositions "a" y "de"

!Qué raro que dices eso! Porque solamente ahora he terminado de leer sobre eso en el libro de la gramática completa española, hay unos verbos comunes que requieren las preposiciones "de" y "a" en páginas 290-291

Bob - you crack me up. No wonder you learn so much faster than I do. I am SO linear that it is one of those things where your strengths are your worst faults... I read books from page 1. I think I'm around page 70 right now. When you say "pages 290-291", my brain thinks: "that's a few weeks/months away". LOL!! Maybe I'll have to read ahead............

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Lou Ann: Thank you for helping me with the examples (I really didn't know what to do with exact hours and approximate time).

So if you wanted to know the difference between "en punto" and "en la mañana/tarde/noche", it's the same one between "o'clock" or "sharp" and approximate time sentences.

You're right that the context can make it redundant to emphasize the time of the day, but that's actually very common in Spanish.