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Haber, etc.

 

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  #1  
Old July 22, 2020, 11:17 AM
Tyrn Tyrn is offline
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Haber, etc.

Hi,

Is it possible to use one haber for a train of past participles?

Can one say se han detenido y abrazado? Or one se just isn't enough ?
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Old July 22, 2020, 04:08 PM
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Tomisimo Tomisimo is offline
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It doesn't sound right to me, but I'll defer to native speakers or anyone who can cite a rule.
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Old July 24, 2020, 09:39 PM
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Although it cannot be generalized, here it's a valid preference of style.
"Se han detenido y abrazado", feels to me like a movie scene; as if they were running from something and when they felt safe they stopped and hugged each other. It's like both actions are happening at the same time, so I don't feel the need to read "se han detenido y se han abrazado".

- El auto se ha volcado e incendiado.
It's like the original example: you can almost see the car overturned and immediately catching fire, so there is no need to use "se" + "haber" twice.
Yet, "el auto se ha volcado y se ha incendiado" sounds far more formal. ç

- Se han maquillado y vestido elegantemente.
Again, since both actions, to put on make-up, and to get dressed elegantly are activities of the same nature, they can be grouped together. For reasons of style, I'd prefer "se han maquillado y se han vestido elegantemente".


However, when the two actions can't be grouped together, separating their conjugations is necessary:

- Me dijeron que te has enojado y te has ido de la fiesta.
You may find "te has enojado e ido de la fiesta". It's not necessarily incorrect to me, but it's poor style, because the fact that you got mad and then walked out of the party are distinct actions.

- Nos hemos enterado y hemos venido inmediatamente.
Some people might say "nos hemos enterado y venido inmediatamente", but the fact that we heard the news first and then we made a decision to come over, separates the actions for me.
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Old July 26, 2020, 08:15 AM
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Oh, how nice Thanks!

So, the grammar is not even an issue.
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Old July 27, 2020, 08:04 AM
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@Angelica, thank you very much for that explanation. It makes perfect sense.
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Old July 27, 2020, 01:55 PM
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Indeed, the issue isn't grammar, but rather syntax, which is an even trickier aspect of learning a foreign language.



@David: Glad to help.




It's funny, I found this today in a book:

"Aunque había ocultado el parentezco con timidez y cuidado toda su vida."

This was a good edition of a classic novel; the translator is credited and the publishing company has its prestige, but I've found a few sentences like this, which make me jump out of the seat. For me, the fact that there are so many words between both participles is enough reason to repeat "había" (and I also find the second sentence fragmentary).
The problem we have here, I think, is that we are always told we must avoid repetition as much as possible, but sometimes repetition helps to have a clear and distinct idea of what is happening.

A better sentence, for me, would have been:
"Aunque había ocultado el parentezco con timidez y lo había cuidado toda su vida"
This way, we know what he had taken care of and we don't have to go far to find where the auxiliary verb was first.
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Old July 30, 2020, 05:36 PM
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Me ha ayudado a entender mejor la diferencia de uno y otra!
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