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Modo subjuntivo

 

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  #11  
Old March 30, 2011, 09:45 AM
wereger wereger is offline
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My teacher gave it to me from an old test book.... what do you mean they make no sense in Spanish?
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  #12  
Old March 30, 2011, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wereger View Post
My teacher gave it to me from an old test book.... what do you mean they make no sense in Spanish?
Read the last two posts - @Irma confirms they are perfectly alright in Spanish spoken in Spain, but @aleCcoweN says they make no sense in Latin American Spanish (am I allowed to use this expression?). You need to decide which Spanish to learn, or both.
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  #13  
Old March 30, 2011, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wereger View Post
My teacher gave it to me from an old test book.... what do you mean they make no sense in Spanish?
Depending on the level of Spanish you are now, there are two possibilities:

1) For low-intermediate students (sorry if "low" is not the proper term), just learning a mechanical trick without any understanding ---> with "quizá", "tal vez" and "acaso" use subjunctive, with "a lo mejor" use indicative and that's it.

2) For upper-intermediate students, learning that there are two kinds of "adverbs of doubt", those which are not focal and those which are. No matter dictionaries -including the most prestigious one in Spanish- say "a lo mejor = quizás", the fact is that we use "quizá" generally as a non focal adverb together with subjunctive, to refer a general doubt, to refer known information or to refer information that is believed a shared information. We also use sometimes "quizá" as a focal adverb to communicate less uncertainty, to introduce new information and to express a personal opinion. Well, "a lo/la mejor" is for 90% of Spanish speakers -including most Spaniards- a focal adverb, and it has a specific role, that is to highlight one possibility above all the rest. What follows "a lo mejor" -always with "lively" indicative- is regarded by the speaker as a "more real": it's more possible, it has more important consequences, and, very important, it is a personal opinion, but most of all it is "what we are talking about at this very moment" -"a lo mejor" calls to disregard momentarily any other possibility-.

Let's get back to the examples. Those with 'todavía' in blue are pretty normal but people say "A lo mejor todavía están durmiendo" as a 'freshly squeezed' hypothesis got on the fly and shared in order to explain what is happening at the moment. As this is already becoming too long, I'll leave the collision of both adverbs and the present continuous for an other time.

In the example including 'todavía' in red, all the set is totally artificial. You may hear dialogues like this:

A- "No han dicho nada sobre la sorpresa." [fact presented to B by A]
B- "A lo mejor no se han enterado aún." [Personal hypothesis offered to A by B]

If the goal of the exercise was 1), the examples are complicated and pretty artifitial. If the goal of the exercise is 2) there's no evidence that who developed the exercise has departed from 2) or any similar background.

About varieties among the language, the difference is not between American and European Spanish -except for 30 to 40 million speakers from part of four South American countries- but between average or beyond average education versus below average education -or being too much eager to answer-.

"A lo mejor", the American "capaz que", and the local popular variety "a la mejor" are used as focal adverbs, so the examples need to have something specific, aspectual of psychological to aim the spotlight.
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  #14  
Old April 01, 2011, 02:49 AM
wereger wereger is offline
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¡¡¡¡beat me up and tie me to the train tracks !!!!!!
I will never learn this language

So....To understand the condicional better I tried to say one thing in two ways.. so..
I would go to the cinema if I have money.
Yo iría al cine , si tengo dinero.
I will go ti the cinema if I have money.
Yo Iré al cine, si tengo dinero.

"Si tengo dinero" is constant... but the first part is the one that matters.. "Iré al cine" is a fact..I will go, but only if I have money... And "iría al cine" is not a fact.. if i have money I could go, but I could as well do something else ...
But I wonder... Futuro= uncertainty so.... In that matter the both are uncertain ..but the one with futuro is more certain than the other with condicional ??? Am I right??

can I say => Yo he venido al cine si tengo dinero.. And how does it sound in English? I thionk I could use this If in the morning I was invited to go to the cinema, but I had no money, and now is the afternoon and I am talking with you about it...

No that is nonsense... I juste remembered that in Spanish we CAN'T cross times.. Futuro is used when we talk about the present and to express probability with regards to a past action we use condicional...

Last edited by AngelicaDeAlquezar; April 01, 2011 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Merged back-to-back posts
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Old April 01, 2011, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wereger View Post
I tried to say one thing in two ways.. so..
I would go to the cinema if I have had money.
I will go ti the cinema if I have money.
...
Note that you are not saying the same thing twice, the moods are different. The second statement is a simple fact, if A then B. The first one has the implication that it won't happen because you don't have the money. A big difference. You need to get this clear before trying to translate.
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  #16  
Old April 01, 2011, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wereger View Post
So....To understand the condicional better I tried to say one thing in two ways.. so..
I would go to the cinema if I have money.
Yo iría al cine , si tengo dinero.
I will go ti the cinema if I have money.
Yo Iré al cine, si tengo dinero.
I'd go to the cinema if I had money = Iría al cine si tuviera dinero

This comes to mind: 100% hypothetical ... unreal ... speculation .... what is stated using conditional will happen as soon as the condition in (past simple/imperfecto del subjuntivo) is met .... supposedly that is not happening at the moment ... no information about the likelihood of it or the expectation of it happening any soon

I'll go to the cinema if I have money = Iré al cine si tengo dinero

I made my mind: that'll happen ... we only have to wait until the condition is met ... it implies the expectation of me having money in the foreseeable future or an before-the-fact explanation about why "going to the movies" won't happen
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  #17  
Old April 01, 2011, 11:10 AM
wereger wereger is offline
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....
- ¿Le habían quedado a Victoria algunas entradas para la función del sábado?
- No sabía si le habrían quedado pero di las mías a Eduardo porque tenía otros planes.



I'm stuffed.... what are those...
habían quedado= pluscuamperfecto??
habrían quedado= ?????
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  #18  
Old April 01, 2011, 11:41 AM
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habrían quedado = condicional compuesto

Quote:
- ¿Le habían quedado a Victoria algunas entradas para la función del sábado?
- No sabía si le habrían quedado pero di las mías a Eduardo porque tenía otros planes.
This is 'real' strange. That sentence has a lot of non-native features. If giving my tickets to Eduardo is in the slightest way for him to benefit, "le di" is almost 'mandatory'. The "si le habrían quedado" part looks like 'the Spanish feature of future tense implying doubt in present moment meet some features of Spanish reported speech' what is indeed correct but more suitable for advanced students, besides it calls for a specific context. The fact is that the use fitting the -by far- most probable context is "no sabía si le habían quedado, pero".
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  #19  
Old April 02, 2011, 11:18 AM
wereger wereger is offline
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oh my GOD..what is she doing?? we didn't even get to the "condicional compuesto".....no matter..I'll try to translate!
=>
¿Le habían quedado a Victoria algunas entradas para la función del sábado?
Did you give Victoria some tickets for the show on Saturday?
No sabía si le habrían quedado pero di las mías a Eduardo porque tenía otros planes.
I don't know if they gave them to her but I gave mine to Eduardo because I had other planes.

sorry if the tenses in English are not so well done, but It's not my native language and its really hard for me to compare Spanish with English...

If the conjecture or expression of probability is about the present, the future tense is used.
With regards to reported speech, if the main clause is in the past, the conditional is used.
This is the difference, but then subjuntivo is prefered when the structure of the sentense is more "difficult"..
for example ... =>
¿Quién tiene el libro que tenemos que leer para la semana próxima?
1.No sé, pero lo tendrá Alejo. = futuro
2.Quizás lo tenga Alejo.= subjuntivo by marker word

When we use the past we use condicional not futuro..
than what do we use for subhuntivo when talking in the past???

Last edited by AngelicaDeAlquezar; April 02, 2011 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Merged back-to-back posts
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  #20  
Old April 02, 2011, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wereger View Post
oh my GOD..what is she doing?? we didn't even get to the "condicional compuesto".....no matter..I'll try to translate!
=>
¿Le habían quedado a Victoria algunas entradas para la función del sábado?
Did you give Victoria some tickets for the show on Saturday?
No sabía si le habrían quedado pero di las mías a Eduardo porque tenía otros planes.
I don't know if they gave them to her but I gave mine to Eduardo because I had other planes.

sorry if the tenses in English are not so well done, but It's not my native language and its really hard for me to compare Spanish with English...
In this sentence "si" is not conditional, but "completivo" ( ). There isn't any condition in the sentence, but "si" is used to join ("si" is a "conjunción") two sentences (you can see two verbs: "saber" and "quedar", so there are two sentences -forget the others-: No sabía si le (quedar).

There is something known as "concordancia de tiempos". If you use "imperfecto" in the main clause (yo no sabía), you must use "pluscuamperfecto" in the subordinate clause. Conditional makes no sense here.

Well, I think I've told you the answer.

Quote:

If the conjecture or expression of probability is about the present, the future tense is used.
With regards to reported speech, if the main clause is in the past, the conditional is used.
This is the difference, but then subjuntivo is prefered when the structure of the sentense is more "difficult"..
for example ... =>
¿Quién tiene el libro que tenemos que leer para la semana próxima?
1.No sé, pero lo tendrá Alejo. = futuro
2.Quizás lo tenga Alejo.= subjuntivo by marker word

When we use the past we use condicional not futuro..
than what do we use for subhuntivo when talking in the past???
You can use both sentences. There isn't any difference. The first might give an idea of more security on the part of the speaker, but I wouldn't say that it is always like this:

Quizás venga mañana = Quizás vendrá mañana.

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