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Accusative pronoun vs. The accidental reflexive construction!

 

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  #1  
Old September 27, 2014, 06:51 AM
arnoldsg72 arnoldsg72 is offline
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Accusative pronoun vs. The accidental reflexive construction!

http://spanish.stackexchange.com/que...-constructions

In above site, it has written about the "accusative pronoun":
example: Se me cayó.
This element "me" is used to "accuse" somebody of being "guilty" of that.
another examples:
Se me cayó el libro.
Se te perdió la mochicla.


Now see what is written in another site about "Se with Unplanned Occurrences" or "The accidental reflexive construction": http://www.elearnspanishlanguage.com...reflexive.html


The accidental reflexive construction indicates that the action was unintentional. In addition, because the subject is only referred to by an indirect object pronoun, this construction gives the sense that the subject is not to blame - he or she had nothing to do with the accident.
examples:
Se le cayó la pluma.
¿Se te perdieron las llaves?


Now I confused which is correct? According to first site information I understood that Indirect object pronoun is used to "accuse" somebody of being "guilty" of doing action. So I conclude the action of that one is intentionally and not accidentally. According to second site the action is done accidentally. which one is correct? Maybe,I should say indirect object pronoun in passive se construction indicates somebody that is guilty of doing an action accidentally??
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  #2  
Old September 27, 2014, 08:25 AM
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Rusty Rusty is offline
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All the examples you cited are unplanned or accidental.

The word accusative, here, doesn't mean 'accusatory'. It means 'direct object'. It is the pronoun 'se' that is the direct object.
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Old September 27, 2014, 09:32 AM
arnoldsg72 arnoldsg72 is offline
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Dear Rusty, do you mean that:
"se" in the mentioned sentences is "direct object pronoun" in addition to "passive se" construction?
and "accusative pronoun" is "direct object pronoun" not only in active voice but also in passive voice?
Do you have "direct object pronoun" in passive voice?
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Old September 27, 2014, 12:59 PM
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There is no passive 'se' in the constructions you used. They are all examples of accidental 'se'.

The pasiva refleja construction uses 'se'.
The passive voice doesn't use 'se'.


Passive voice - Voz pasiva
No direct object, no subject. The patient is acted upon by the verb (the agent, if specified, is preceded with the preposition 'by').

The city was destroyed.
La ciudad fue destruida.



Pasiva refleja
The English equivalent is the passive voice.

The city was destroyed.
Se destruyó la ciudad.



Accidental 'se'
The direct object is represented by the pronoun 'se'. There is a subject and an indirect object.

I broke the glass. (It was an accident.)
Se me cayó el vaso.
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Old September 28, 2014, 08:53 AM
arnoldsg72 arnoldsg72 is offline
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@Rusty, could you give me a reference that "se" is an direct object? like a grammar book or a site address about this? If it is possible they would be in English language. thanks.
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Old September 28, 2014, 04:33 PM
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Sorry, what I wrote above about 'se' being a direct object is incorrect.
The 'accusative pronoun' and the 'direct object pronoun' are one in the same, but 'se' can never be used as a direct object pronoun.

The sentences you wrote in the first post are all examples of the accidental 'se'. Not one of the sentences has a direct object in it. The 'se' is usually thought of, in English at least, as a reflexive pronoun. The action of the verb is reflected back on the subject.
The indirect object pronoun is representing the person acted upon.
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