Ask a Question

(Create a thread)
Go Back   Spanish language learning forums > Teaching & Learning > Culture


Español Latino vs Castellano/Español de España

 

Questions about culture and cultural differences between countries and languages.


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old March 28, 2011, 01:17 PM
Perikles's Avatar
Perikles Perikles is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Tenerife
Posts: 4,814
Native Language: Inglés
Perikles is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Why always pop the supposed "Latín vulgar" -an oxymoron by its own- and Latin as the putative mother of Spanish, I don't know; .
Quote:
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Lo que me refería en el post #13 es la idea todavía difundida de que el castellano -y todas las lenguas romances de la Península- son descendientes directos del latín en su forma vulgar. El castellano desciende del italiano antiguo, especialmente de los dialectos hablados en la Campania y más hacia el sur.
I think some clarification is needed here. This is really a question of definition of terms, but to challenge the idea that Vulgar Latin is not the root of Spanish is to go against well establish academic and linguistic concepts long accepted over the past century. Vulgar Latin is not an oxymoron, at least not in English. From the Oxford Classical Dictionary:
Quote:
Latin ... was originally spoken in Latium from 800 B.C. or earlier and with the spread of Roman power became the common language first of Italy .... then ...of the Roman Empire. The language of the illiterate majority of Latin speakers, Vulgar Latin, evolved through its regional dialects into the Romance languages.
This label may not be to everyone's liking, but it is not just some vague unattested idea. To disgree with this is either a very individual interpretation or a confusion of terms.
   
Get rid of these ads by registering for a free Tomísimo account.
  #22  
Old March 28, 2011, 02:44 PM
aleCcowaN's Avatar
aleCcowaN aleCcowaN is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 3,127
Native Language: Castellano
aleCcowaN is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
I think some clarification is needed here. This is really a question of definition of terms, but to challenge the idea that Vulgar Latin is not the root of Spanish is to go against well establish academic and linguistic concepts long accepted over the past century. Vulgar Latin is not an oxymoron, at least not in English.
That idea is unchallengeable simply because "Vulgar Latin" was a name coined to label the sack where all the unexplained went.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
This label may not be to everyone's liking, but it is not just some vague unattested idea. To disgree with this is either a very individual interpretation or a confusion of terms.
There's a lot of research going on and a bunch of works published during the last 15 or 20 years even when the subject is elusive as written documents are mostly in Latin because that language was intended for written documents, while every day earlier Italian languages were ... just to speak. Certainly a matter for controversy, but anyway the ball is rolling.

I wonder what 'looked like' the famous apologue of Menenius Agrippa -who had recently defeated the Sabines- to the plebeians when they retreat to Mount Sacro. Such a speech might contain hints of what'd become three hundreds years later, in one hand, written, official, administrative Latin, and in the other hand, one of many lines of what'd become the """""Vulgar Latin""""" which was to overflow the boot's borders and seed what'd later come to be known as Romance languages. That's how they explain why Latin has no articles (like Sanskrit or modern Slave and Baltic languages) and some say "I need your el truck-o to go to the next el town-o" because Spanish looks like having not enough, or even English -which grammar looks like having been bulldozed by the force of the clashes of languages- has managed to keep a vestige of cases and declinations in the Saxon genitive while Spanish and the like have "lost" them -nobody lost what they never had-. Future tense in Latin replaced by a verbal periphrasis, it's possible, but, exactly the same in many Romance languages? It's a matter of debate but the periphrasis probably existed before any arms and wombs left the boot.

This is a nice subject. I'm on learning-mode about it and just as a non academic interest, so many mistakes can be attributed to me.
__________________
[gone]
  #23  
Old March 28, 2011, 02:52 PM
JPablo's Avatar
JPablo JPablo is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,579
Native Language: Spanish (Castilian, peninsular)
JPablo is on a distinguished road
@AleC, te comprendo perfectamente... es un fenómeno que ocurre, pero creo que con los medios de comunicación existentes las tendencias de corrupción de un idioma, creo que se pueden reducir o paliar hasta cierto punto. Pero eso no quita que no las conozcamos... y que podamos bromear con ellas y sobre ellas... o jokear... ju nous?

@Perikles, yes, your points are well taken. (I may be wrong, but the terminology on this I believe it is parallel in Spanish.)
__________________
Lo propio de la verdad es que se basta a sí misma, aquel que la posee no intenta convencer a nadie.
"An enemy is somebody who flatters you. A friend is somebody who criticizes the living daylights out of you."
  #24  
Old March 29, 2011, 03:46 AM
explorator's Avatar
explorator explorator is offline
Pearl
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Spain
Posts: 140
Native Language: Castillan spanish
explorator is on a distinguished road
Lo que dice AleCcowaN en el post número 18 me parece muy razonable, es a eso a lo que me refería cuando al hablar del latin clásico y el vulgar dije que mundo romano se enfrentaba a una realidad lingüística disglósica, esto es presencia real de dos idiomas, en el mismo territorio, tal vez tres, puesto que también se dice que las clases altas hablaban entre sí en griego como símbolo de distinción.
Por otro lado, entiendo que la utilización del término "latino" para diferenciarnos entre nosotros, como nos diferencian los norteamericanos carece de sentido.
  #25  
Old March 31, 2011, 04:16 PM
poli's Avatar
poli poli is offline
rule 1: gravity
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In and around New York
Posts: 7,442
Native Language: English
poli will become famous soon enoughpoli will become famous soon enough
Latino se usa los de latinoamérica que hablan español pero tienen poco en común con España. En general los hispanos admiran a España y los latinos no piensan mucho de España o llevan una mala impresión por el colonialismo del pasado (en mexico y peruamnos que cononzoco hay recelo por el tratamiento de los aztecas y incas) o el compartamiento de algunos turistas.
__________________
Me ayuda si corrige mis errores. Gracias.
  #26  
Old March 31, 2011, 04:46 PM
aleCcowaN's Avatar
aleCcowaN aleCcowaN is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 3,127
Native Language: Castellano
aleCcowaN is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
Latino se usa los de latinoamérica que hablan español pero tienen poco en común con España. En general los hispanos admiran a España y los latinos no piensan mucho de España o llevan una mala impresión por el colonialismo del pasado (en mexico y peruamnos que cononzoco hay recelo por el tratamiento de los aztecas y incas) o el compartamiento de algunos turistas.
Residentes en Estados Unidos o vinculados a su actividad y cultura, n'est-ce pas?
__________________
[gone]
  #27  
Old April 01, 2011, 02:30 AM
explorator's Avatar
explorator explorator is offline
Pearl
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Spain
Posts: 140
Native Language: Castillan spanish
explorator is on a distinguished road
Entiendo, que lo que Poli quiere decir en el post 25 es que se utiliza el término latino para no identificarse con los gentilicios español e hispano, dado el recelo que continúa suscitando la "Conquista de América". Ya había oido un argumento similar respecto a la utilización que en algunos países, especialmente en Argentina, se hace de la palabra "gallego" para evitar llamar españoles a los naturales de mi país, puesto que tras las guerras de independencia la españolidad llegó a considerarse odiosa.

No obstante, debo recordar, que tanto Francia como España utilizaron en su política de conquista de territorios ultramarinos, la misma estratégia, inspirada en la conquista romana (de hecho, esa es una de las razones por la que incluí la descripción de ésta en un post anterior): Procurar la destrucción total de los pueblos que se les oponían y buscar la integración de aquellos que se les aliaban, incluso por medio de la política matrimonial entre la nobleza indígena y los oficiales de la Corona de España. A veces salió bien y otras diversas circunstancias derivaron en sangrientos enfrentamientos. En todo caso, desde España nos llama la atención el grado de antiespañolismo persistente en la América de lengua española tras dos siglos de independencia, a pesar de que el número de descendientes de la población indígena en dichos países es mucho mayor que en los de colonización Británica.
  #28  
Old April 01, 2011, 08:32 AM
poli's Avatar
poli poli is offline
rule 1: gravity
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In and around New York
Posts: 7,442
Native Language: English
poli will become famous soon enoughpoli will become famous soon enough
Naturally Spain does not own the patent for colonialism which often works
out badly especially when great empires are taken over by other empires. (Byzantine/Ottoman comes to mind)
__________________
Me ayuda si corrige mis errores. Gracias.
  #29  
Old April 01, 2011, 10:59 AM
pjt33's Avatar
pjt33 pjt33 is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Valencia, España
Posts: 2,571
Native Language: Inglés (en-gb)
pjt33 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by explorator View Post
a pesar de que el número de descendientes de la población indígena en dichos países es mucho mayor que en los de colonización Británica.
¿Quieres decirme que los mil millones de habitantes de la India no son indígenas?
  #30  
Old April 01, 2011, 11:10 AM
Perikles's Avatar
Perikles Perikles is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Tenerife
Posts: 4,814
Native Language: Inglés
Perikles is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjt33 View Post
los mil millones de habitantes de la India
*cough* BBC
Closed Thread

Bookmark this thread at:

 

Link to this thread
URL: 
HTML Link: 
BB Code: 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Site Rules

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Español desea charlar en inglés y español por skype javi976er Introductions 4 April 26, 2010 03:09 PM
Español de España bobjenkins Culture 24 March 10, 2010 01:36 AM
¿En cuántos países se habla el castellano-español? viveka Culture 16 June 06, 2009 07:12 AM
¿Castellano o español? viveka Introductions 13 April 28, 2008 06:08 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:57 AM.

Forum powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

X