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Debe vs. Debe de

 

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  #21  
Old May 14, 2009, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
It's back to presciptive and discriptive grammar.
I have heard deber de sentences where it clearly meant "should" rather than strong "have to", and I never paid attention to it until these posts. It makes sense to me that deber without the de is much more imperative.

Just read these two examples, and you will pick up the fine difference in meaning.
Debo ir al médico. (I have a lump on the side of my neck)
Debo de ir al médico (It's been a year)

Thanks to the person who asked the question, and thanks to all who responded.

Poli:

There isn't, or at lest there shouldn't be a prescriptive or descriptive grammar. (today we have a dynamic Spanish frame of mind)

Grammar if anything is prescriptive and that's that.

En chile, incluso al presidente lo escuché decir "mas menos" en vez de decir " mas o menos". El hecho que lo haya dicho el presidente de la república no lo hace menos mal dicho.

En español tenemos la RAE. Aquella entidad dictamina el uso. Si decide incluir el uso que se le da a una palabra, se incluye. Si no esta aceptada una palabra, entonces esta mal dicho.

If a word is going to be accepted because the population's willingness to use it freely, then it is accepted.
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  #22  
Old May 14, 2009, 09:25 AM
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Entiendo lo que dices. Estoy de acuerdo que debemos tener estándardes del idioma. Los estudiantes tienen que aprenderlo para tener éxito en su profesional y social . No obstante,, para estiantes avanzados, existe o debe de existir el estudio de idiomas sub-estándar. En la mayoría de veces el estudio de lenguaje sub-estándar es fascinante porque existe una razon y lógico en su uso. A veces es poético, y analisarlo se puede enriquecer la mente y nuestras vidas. Todos los idiomas empezaron como sub-estádar.
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  #23  
Old May 14, 2009, 10:16 AM
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I'm a bit normative, I want to speak a language following the rules. Once you know the rules, you can know that there are another ways of saying the same things, but first you must know the good way.

Anyway, language changes fast than the RAE academics
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  #24  
Old May 14, 2009, 10:50 AM
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Estoy de acuerdo con lo que dicen Hernán y Irmamar. Número uno es aprender comunicar bien en lenguaje estándar. Sin aprender eso es un gran perjuisio para el estudante.
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  #25  
Old May 14, 2009, 11:49 AM
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I'm relieved irmamar agreed with me... I was starting to doubt.


@Poli: I'll be a bit stubborn and say it's not the preposition (but maybe rather the intonation and explanation given for each case) which would give the nuance to your sentence.

Debo ir al médico. (I have a lump on the side of my neck)
Debo de ir al médico (It's been a year)


Juan debe ir al médico. Ha estado tosiendo.
Juan must go to the doctor. He's been coughing.
You think that's what he ought to do.

-- ¿A dónde va Juan?
Where is Juan going?
-- Debe de ir al médico. Ha estado tosiendo.
He must be going to the doctor. He's been coughing.
You make a supposition about where he's going after you've seen he's ill.
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  #26  
Old May 14, 2009, 12:13 PM
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Poli:

Angelica gave you the real answer.

Now, we people choose to say it differently, then it isn't grammar.

Angelica gave you the grammatical correct way to say it.

When you talk about prescriptive and descriptive grammar, there isn't any such thing.

For instance, the law says that you should not kill, well that doesn't prevent people from doing it, right?

Is is correct because a lot of people kill?

Is it even acceptable that a lot of people kill?

I am a bit extremist, or radical if you will, but to me grammar is the law. If I chose to not abide by it, then it is my problem, but I try not to justify it arguing that many people use it and it is even accepted by lots of people.

it is my POV anyway.
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  #27  
Old May 14, 2009, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
Estoy de acuerdo con lo que dicen Hernán e Irmamar. Número uno es aprender a comunicarse bien en lenguaje estándar. Sin aprender eso es un gran perjuicio para el estudiante.
Just minor corrections.
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  #28  
Old May 14, 2009, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar View Post
I'm relieved irmamar agreed with me... I was starting to doubt.


@Poli: I'll be a bit stubborn and say it's not the preposition (but maybe rather the intonation and explanation given for each case) which would give the nuance to your sentence.

Debo ir al médico. (I have a lump on the side of my neck)
Debo de ir al médico (It's been a year)


Juan debe ir al médico. Ha estado tosiendo.
Juan must go to the doctor. He's been coughing.
You think that's what he ought to do.

-- ¿A dónde va Juan?
Where is Juan going?
-- Debe de ir al médico. Ha estado tosiendo.
He must be going to the doctor. He's been coughing.
You make a supposition about where he's going after you've seen he's ill.
Oh yes. I can hear it now. Thank makes sense. It's very similar to English with the word "must" example: He's sick. He must(debe) go to the doctor
Where is he? He must (debe de) be at the doctor by now
Sorry I was so thick about this.
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