Subjunctive question [again:>))]

[Vikingo]

Originally Posted by tacuba

@Malila

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. The question I was trying to ask was, "if a sentence starts with a clause or phrase that triggers the subjunctive, are all of the conjugated verbs that follow the clause or phrase used in the subjunctive?" The answer seems to be yes.

No, the second subjunctive in this case is caused by the focus on scarcity of the antecedent in the relative clause that follows, it's independent of the "no creo que".

[irmamar]

I do not agree. "Que vayan a querer participar" is completely dependent of the main sentence, which is "No creo". You could say:

No creo que muchos vayan a querer participar.
Creo que muchos van a querer participar.

The first subordinate ("haya muchos") becomes the subject of the second subordinate, so you can make the substitution to see it more clear.

You can't leave alone a subordinate, it has no sense without the main sentence:

Haya muchos. It has no sense.
Vayan a querer participar. The same.

[Vikingo]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I do not agree. "Que vayan a querer participar" is completely dependent of the main sentence, which is "No creo". You could say:

No creo que muchos vayan a querer participar.
Creo que muchos van a querer participar.

The first subordinate ("haya muchos") becomes the subject of the second subordinate, so you can make the substitution to see it more clear.

You can't leave alone a subordinate, it has no sense without the main sentence:

Haya muchos. It has no sense.
Vayan a querer participar. The same.

I think you'll agree if I explain myself in a little more detail , sorry about being a bit too succinct.

Let's take this phrase: "No creo que haya muchos aquí que vayan a querer participar". The somewhat hidden relative phrase inside the whole noun phrase is "No hay muchos que vayan a querer participar". Do you see it? We could also say "Hay muy pocos que quieran participar", or similar. The subjunctive in these cases is caused by the scarcity of the antecedent, akin to "No hay nadie que (+ subj) ...". However, if we were to not focus on the scarcity, we'd use indicative, as in "Hay unos pocos que quieren participar".

To see the independence from the whole noun phrase with "no creo que", let's take another relative phrase, and see that it doesn't suddenly go in the subjunctive. We'll pretend that we all know there are lots of specific people willing to participate, but I doubt he'll find them, for some reason. I'd then say, for example "No creo que vayas a encontrar a los que quieren participar".

Do you agree now? Comments are of course very welcome. Saludos

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by María José

Ok, that I understand,thanks, but I say ' No me líes'.


Thanks, Crotalito.

Thank you for the correction.

Please you don't confuse me

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Vikingo: Irma is right. The verb in the main sentence determines the tense of the subordinate sentence.
When you communicate "belief" ("no creo que haya muchos"), there is already the inherent need for subjunctive, in both, the main sentence and the subordinate one.

Your sentence "hay muy pocos que quieran participar" should rather be "hay muy pocos que quieren participar", because you're communicating certainty.
But the reason why "no hay nadie que quiera participar" needs the subjunctive is that some negative sentences use the subjunctive instead of present tense.

Algunos estamos de acuerdo. (Some of us agree.)
No hay nadie que esté de acuerdo. (There is no one who agrees.)

Tengo un libro que quiero leer. (I have a book I want to read.)
No tengo ningún libro que quiera leer. (I don't have any book I want to read.)

Pienso que es inteligente. (I think he's bright.)
No pienso que sea inteligente. (I don't think he's bright.)

[chileno]

I know in Chile we speak badly but to me "No creo que hayan muchos interesados..." sounds perfect.

[CrOtALiTo]

Chileno.

My attempt could to works too.

No creo que puedan haber muchos interezados.
I don't believe that could have a lot of interested.

Please you feeling you free to correcting me in any moment.

[Vikingo]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Vikingo: Irma is right. The verb in the main sentence determines the tense of the subordinate sentence.
When you communicate "belief" ("no creo que haya muchos"), there is already the inherent need for subjunctive, in both, the main sentence and the subordinate one.

Your sentence "hay muy pocos que quieran participar" should rather be "hay muy pocos que quieren participar", because you're communicating certainty.
But the reason why "no hay nadie que quiera participar" needs the subjunctive is that some negative sentences use the subjunctive instead of present tense.

Obsidiana, it seems to me like you're looking for a grammatical spanking (pretending that irma understood my first post, after you had read my second, pretending not to know the difference between a tense and a mood, pretending that the "dichotomy" - in the case of there being a specific one - between indicative and subjunctive is one of certainty, etc). I'm not going to give it to you at this level, though.

However, as I'm still learning Spanish, do you honestly think that using the subjunctive with a sentence like "hay muy pocos que quieran participar", is wrong, when we're focusing on there being almost noone? You didn't call it wrong specifically (pretending to not have understood the meaning of focus in my last post...), so I want to make it clear. I sure can cite an authoritative source, but consider that part of your spanking prize if you give a good and honest answer.

Go, grrrl team! ;P

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Vikingo: Grammatical spanking??? Sorry, I don't get what that's supposed to mean and I don't know either what you pretend by listing that many pretendings. Now, I may well have a confusion on the use of "tense" and "mood" and I always welcome corrections on my English, so I don't think that should be any problem.

As for my comments on the subjunctive, unless what I've said falls into the category of "regional differences", none of what I've said is false about it.

By the way, you can call me Angélica. "Obsidiana" is just the title, just like yours is "Ruby".

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Vikingo: Grammatical spanking??? Sorry, I don't get what that's supposed to mean and I don't know either what you pretend by listing that many pretendings. Now, I may well have a confusion on the use of "tense" and "mood" and I always welcome corrections on my English, so I don't think that should be any problem.

As for my comments on the subjunctive, unless what I've said falls into the category of "regional differences", none of what I've said is false about it.

By the way, you can call me Angélica. "Obsidiana" is just the title, just like yours is "Ruby".

Angelica.
Always I had the doubt about something above you.
What does Obsidiana means?

I don't find any relation of the word with you.

Please you don't take ban my commentary or question that is it the first and important of the question.
But I found interesting the word Obsidiana in a person like you.
I hope you can clear my question and well I don't pretend offend no ones.

Besides I believe what that word could be more interesting in your language, because that term could mean a intelligent people like you.

I guess it.