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A King changed the pronunciation of Z and C?

 

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  #1  
Old June 14, 2010, 10:41 AM
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A King changed the pronunciation of Z and C?

Someone told me that the reason that “z” and “c” are pronounced differently in Spain than in Latin America is because there was a Spanish King who had a lisp and people in Spain mimicked his pronunciation of these letters. Does anyone have more information on this? Which King was it? Are there regions of Castilian-Speaking Spain where these letters are pronounced more like they are in Latin America? How about the reverse? Is there somewhere in Latin America where these letters are pronounced like they are in Contemporary Castilian-speaking Spain?

Thanks,

rpg
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  #2  
Old June 14, 2010, 11:33 AM
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At least here in my country the Z and the C sound same.

Zeta, CE

Sincerely yours.
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  #3  
Old June 14, 2010, 12:21 PM
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The LEGEND of the Spanish King seems to be quite widespread in the US. It is a myth. And just that. It is a fact that in any language, the language spoken in the court is what others, seeking higher status, try to imitate. That happens with French, with Spanish, and any other language that I know. There is a "high" standard and a "low" standard. (Yet, it would be more difficult for you to learn one of the Southerner-slang accent from Spain, than the "standard" Castilian. Same way I would have a real hard time learning cockney...)

The majority of Latin American accent is very similar to the accent of Sevilla, and that zone of the South of Spain, the place where everyone going to the Americas would have to depart from... (and also spend 1 year or so, I believe, before leaving.) This is the Andalusian 'dialect' of the Spanish. There are 2 phenomena, "seseo" and "ceceo". Probably there is already threads on this.

The 'ceceo' is to pronounce the "s" sound as "th". casa [house] = [catha] = caza [hunting]

The 'seseo' is to pronunce the "th" sound as "s". Cerveza [Therbetha] said as [servesa] caza [hunting] pronounced [casa].

In few words, there are places in the South of Spain where you have "seseo" (Western part of Andalucía) and others where you have "ceceo" (East part of Andalucía)

I am writing from memory, but Rafael Lapesa, in his book HISTORIA DEL ESPAÑOL, gives ample data on how this evolved.

I believe that some parts of Colombia (?) may have a similar accent to the Peninsular Castilian, probably in Bogotá. Argentina, has its own very accent, and in the wide extent of Mexico, Central and South America, there are enough different accents so as to drive any linguist up the wall...

I hope I gave you the answers you were looking for. Otherwise, if any confusion, let me know and I'll clarify...
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Old June 14, 2010, 01:05 PM
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¡Muchas gracias!
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  #5  
Old June 14, 2010, 02:31 PM
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¡De nada! ¡Un placer!
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Old June 15, 2010, 01:25 AM
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Maybe you're referring to Alfonso X, el Sabio, who worked hard to get a linguistic unification. However, neither a king nor the RAE are able to change the people's pronunciation. Alfonso X wrote in Castilian as it was spoken, although some phonemes have two ways of writing (such as z and c).
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Old June 15, 2010, 01:42 AM
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Well, Alfonso X, el Sabio, (the Wise, or the Learned) has a good entry in Wikipedia. I remember him because he got a lot of the scientific and philosophical data from the Arabs (and from Greece, through the Arabic) into "Castilian". "La Escuela de Traductores de Toledo" was part of his creation, and "Jewish, Romance, Latin, and Arabic tongues got translated... they had a Tomisimus-Tomisum forum... [no, no, I am inventing now...]
In Wikipedia says, "He surrounded himself with mostly Jewish translators who rendered Arabic scientific texts into Castilian at Toledo."
At any rate, in the 1200s Castilian was in its infancy... but many of the phonetic characteristics of today's Castilian were starting to 'consolidate'. I believe the basque (euskera) phonetics was a key factor to make Castilian more different than other "romance languages". (I.e., Portuguese and Catalan have more similarities than Castilian and these two languages...) (I'll take a look at my volume by Lapesa, and will refresh this data... so I can write with his usually plausible theories fresh in my mind...)

Last edited by JPablo; June 16, 2010 at 03:40 AM. Reason: Fixed typo
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  #8  
Old June 21, 2010, 09:31 AM
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The story as I heard it, it is quite different. In my version, the seseist king was Philip the Second of Spain. Probably you'll remember him because he ordered to buid an Armada to conquer Great Britain. Well, in spite of all, inside Spain, he became into a very loved and admired King and it is said that the people started to imitate his special way of pronunciation. This would have been the cause of seseism in the Spanish-American pronunciation. Anyway, today this story is considered just a legend and it is not accepted as a true explanation of that fact.
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Old June 22, 2010, 05:18 AM
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"Yo envié mis naves a luchar contra los hombres, no contra los elementos". Felipe II.

Well, it is said that Felipe II was not good at spelling at all.
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Old June 23, 2010, 07:53 AM
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Imagine if Spain would have had (hubiera tenido?) a stammering or a lame king, or something like that. Or if instead of "Alfonso the Wise", the king was "Catalina the Gorgeous", and the same thing happened. I would be living in Spain for sure! :P
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Last edited by ookami; June 23, 2010 at 07:56 AM.
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