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Español Latino vs Castellano/Español de España

 

Questions about culture and cultural differences between countries and languages.


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  #21  
Old March 28, 2011, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Why always pop the supposed "Latín vulgar" -an oxymoron by its own- and Latin as the putative mother of Spanish, I don't know; .
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Lo que me refería en el post #13 es la idea todavía difundida de que el castellano -y todas las lenguas romances de la Península- son descendientes directos del latín en su forma vulgar. El castellano desciende del italiano antiguo, especialmente de los dialectos hablados en la Campania y más hacia el sur.
I think some clarification is needed here. This is really a question of definition of terms, but to challenge the idea that Vulgar Latin is not the root of Spanish is to go against well establish academic and linguistic concepts long accepted over the past century. Vulgar Latin is not an oxymoron, at least not in English. From the Oxford Classical Dictionary:
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Latin ... was originally spoken in Latium from 800 B.C. or earlier and with the spread of Roman power became the common language first of Italy .... then ...of the Roman Empire. The language of the illiterate majority of Latin speakers, Vulgar Latin, evolved through its regional dialects into the Romance languages.
This label may not be to everyone's liking, but it is not just some vague unattested idea. To disgree with this is either a very individual interpretation or a confusion of terms.
   
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  #22  
Old March 28, 2011, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
I think some clarification is needed here. This is really a question of definition of terms, but to challenge the idea that Vulgar Latin is not the root of Spanish is to go against well establish academic and linguistic concepts long accepted over the past century. Vulgar Latin is not an oxymoron, at least not in English.
That idea is unchallengeable simply because "Vulgar Latin" was a name coined to label the sack where all the unexplained went.

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This label may not be to everyone's liking, but it is not just some vague unattested idea. To disgree with this is either a very individual interpretation or a confusion of terms.
There's a lot of research going on and a bunch of works published during the last 15 or 20 years even when the subject is elusive as written documents are mostly in Latin because that language was intended for written documents, while every day earlier Italian languages were ... just to speak. Certainly a matter for controversy, but anyway the ball is rolling.

I wonder what 'looked like' the famous apologue of Menenius Agrippa -who had recently defeated the Sabines- to the plebeians when they retreat to Mount Sacro. Such a speech might contain hints of what'd become three hundreds years later, in one hand, written, official, administrative Latin, and in the other hand, one of many lines of what'd become the """""Vulgar Latin""""" which was to overflow the boot's borders and seed what'd later come to be known as Romance languages. That's how they explain why Latin has no articles (like Sanskrit or modern Slave and Baltic languages) and some say "I need your el truck-o to go to the next el town-o" because Spanish looks like having not enough, or even English -which grammar looks like having been bulldozed by the force of the clashes of languages- has managed to keep a vestige of cases and declinations in the Saxon genitive while Spanish and the like have "lost" them -nobody lost what they never had-. Future tense in Latin replaced by a verbal periphrasis, it's possible, but, exactly the same in many Romance languages? It's a matter of debate but the periphrasis probably existed before any arms and wombs left the boot.

This is a nice subject. I'm on learning-mode about it and just as a non academic interest, so many mistakes can be attributed to me.
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  #23  
Old March 28, 2011, 02:52 PM
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@AleC, te comprendo perfectamente... es un fenómeno que ocurre, pero creo que con los medios de comunicación existentes las tendencias de corrupción de un idioma, creo que se pueden reducir o paliar hasta cierto punto. Pero eso no quita que no las conozcamos... y que podamos bromear con ellas y sobre ellas... o jokear... ju nous?

@Perikles, yes, your points are well taken. (I may be wrong, but the terminology on this I believe it is parallel in Spanish.)
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  #24  
Old March 29, 2011, 03:46 AM
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Lo que dice AleCcowaN en el post número 18 me parece muy razonable, es a eso a lo que me refería cuando al hablar del latin clásico y el vulgar dije que mundo romano se enfrentaba a una realidad lingüística disglósica, esto es presencia real de dos idiomas, en el mismo territorio, tal vez tres, puesto que también se dice que las clases altas hablaban entre sí en griego como símbolo de distinción.
Por otro lado, entiendo que la utilización del término "latino" para diferenciarnos entre nosotros, como nos diferencian los norteamericanos carece de sentido.
  #25  
Old March 31, 2011, 04:16 PM
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Latino se usa los de latinoamérica que hablan español pero tienen poco en común con España. En general los hispanos admiran a España y los latinos no piensan mucho de España o llevan una mala impresión por el colonialismo del pasado (en mexico y peruamnos que cononzoco hay recelo por el tratamiento de los aztecas y incas) o el compartamiento de algunos turistas.
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  #26  
Old March 31, 2011, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
Latino se usa los de latinoamérica que hablan español pero tienen poco en común con España. En general los hispanos admiran a España y los latinos no piensan mucho de España o llevan una mala impresión por el colonialismo del pasado (en mexico y peruamnos que cononzoco hay recelo por el tratamiento de los aztecas y incas) o el compartamiento de algunos turistas.
Residentes en Estados Unidos o vinculados a su actividad y cultura, n'est-ce pas?
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  #27  
Old April 01, 2011, 02:30 AM
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Entiendo, que lo que Poli quiere decir en el post 25 es que se utiliza el término latino para no identificarse con los gentilicios español e hispano, dado el recelo que continúa suscitando la "Conquista de América". Ya había oido un argumento similar respecto a la utilización que en algunos países, especialmente en Argentina, se hace de la palabra "gallego" para evitar llamar españoles a los naturales de mi país, puesto que tras las guerras de independencia la españolidad llegó a considerarse odiosa.

No obstante, debo recordar, que tanto Francia como España utilizaron en su política de conquista de territorios ultramarinos, la misma estratégia, inspirada en la conquista romana (de hecho, esa es una de las razones por la que incluí la descripción de ésta en un post anterior): Procurar la destrucción total de los pueblos que se les oponían y buscar la integración de aquellos que se les aliaban, incluso por medio de la política matrimonial entre la nobleza indígena y los oficiales de la Corona de España. A veces salió bien y otras diversas circunstancias derivaron en sangrientos enfrentamientos. En todo caso, desde España nos llama la atención el grado de antiespañolismo persistente en la América de lengua española tras dos siglos de independencia, a pesar de que el número de descendientes de la población indígena en dichos países es mucho mayor que en los de colonización Británica.
  #28  
Old April 01, 2011, 08:32 AM
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Naturally Spain does not own the patent for colonialism which often works
out badly especially when great empires are taken over by other empires. (Byzantine/Ottoman comes to mind)
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  #29  
Old April 01, 2011, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by explorator View Post
a pesar de que el número de descendientes de la población indígena en dichos países es mucho mayor que en los de colonización Británica.
¿Quieres decirme que los mil millones de habitantes de la India no son indígenas?
  #30  
Old April 01, 2011, 11:10 AM
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los mil millones de habitantes de la India
*cough* BBC
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