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Impersonal passive

 

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  #1  
Old March 27, 2019, 06:47 PM
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Impersonal passive

IS this correct?
1.People noticed that the players did not stand the heat.
The players were noticed not to have stood the heat. ???
2. The parents had believed that the teacher knew all the answers.
the teacher had been believed to have known all the answers.??
3. My parents announced that the children will not go to the museum the next week
the children were announced not to go to the museum the following week.??
4. Susan has said that she has always wanted to be a dentist.
She has been said to have always wanted to be a dentist.??
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  #2  
Old March 27, 2019, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBINDESBOIS View Post
IS this correct?
1.People noticed that the players did not stand the heat.
The players were noticed not to have stood the heat. ???
It was noticed that the players couldn't stand the heat.
2. The parents had believed that the teacher knew all the answers.
the teacher had been believed to have known all the answers.??
It was believed by the parents that the teacher knew all the answers.
3. My parents announced that the children will not go to the museum the next week
the children were announced not to go to the museum the following week.??It was announced by my parents that the children will not go to the museum next week
4. Susan has said that she has always wanted to be a dentist.
She has been said to have always wanted to be a dentist.??
Maybe you may say: It was said by Susan herself that she always wanted to be a dentist.

I hope this helps. It can be correctly assumed that the use of it in the ways I displayed is at least one way of presenting the very commonly used passive in English. You should know that your attempts would not be clearly understood.
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  #3  
Old March 27, 2019, 10:23 PM
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None of them are correct. I agree with all of poli's suggestions.

If you have an English sentence that has an active voice verb, one converts that verb to passive voice by taking either the direct object or the indirect object of the active voice verb and making that object the subject/patient of the passive voice verb.

Looking at your sentences:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBINDESBOIS View Post
IS this correct?
1.People noticed that the players did not stand the heat.

The direct object of "noticed" is "that the players did not stand in the heat", and you can use that phrase, or a pronoun that stands for that phrase, as the passive voice subject/patient. Poli's suggestion does that.
The players were noticed not to have stood the heat. ???
"The players" is the subject of the verb "stand" in the dependent phrase "that the players did not stand in the heat". It is neither the direct object nor the indirect object of the verb "noticed" in the main clause.

2. The parents had believed that the teacher knew all the answers.
The direct object of the verb "had believed" is "that the teacher knew all the answers". Poli's suggestion works.
the teacher had been believed to have known all the answers.??
"the teacher" is the subject of the active voice verb "knew", and it isn't either the direct object or the indirect object of "believed".
3. My parents announced that the children will not go to the museum the next week
The direct object of "announced" is "that the children will not go to the museum the next week". Poli's suggestion works.
the children were announced not to go to the museum the following week.??
"the children" is the subject of "will not go"...
4. Susan has said that she has always wanted to be a dentist.
The direct object is "that she has always wanted to be a dentist". This sentence is ambiguous: without context it is not clear whether Susan is talking about herself or about a different person. Poli's suggestin is good for the first case. If Susan is *not* talking about herself, then another possibility for passive voice is "It has been said that she always wanted to be a dentist."
She has been said to have always wanted to be a dentist.??

Last edited by wrholt; March 27, 2019 at 10:27 PM.
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  #4  
Old March 28, 2019, 01:57 AM
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the options that Poli gave I know they are correct, the problem is that the active voice can be paraphrased in two ways the one that Poli gave and the one I gave, I know it ´s the les common one and they don´t sound very common that´s whyI wanted to verify if they were correct or they needed any changes. Poli´s option I already had it.
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Old March 28, 2019, 03:19 PM
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Grammarly () says all four are fine. I'd take poli's and Bill's advice before believing Grammarly.

Sentences like "the players were noticed not to have stood the heat" strain my brain, as I don't understand what has to do the perfective aspect there (I even suspect it adds information not available in the original wording). I'd rather supposed the passive voice is enough to carry the information about time, with something like "The players were noticed not standing the heat".

Besides "my parents announced that the children will not go to the museum the next week" and "the children were announced not to go to the museum the following week" don't seem to mean the same.
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Old March 28, 2019, 06:14 PM
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Perhaps Grammarly includes archival English in how it determines whether something is grammatically correct. Alec's reference," the players were noticed not to have endured the heat" sounds like 19th century British novel English to me which, in the scope of things, wasn't that long ago. Most people would understand this, but to me it sounds rather bookish.
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Old March 28, 2019, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBINDESBOIS View Post
the options that Poli gave I know they are correct, the problem is that the active voice can be paraphrased in two ways the one that Poli gave and the one I gave, I know it ´s the les common one and they don´t sound very common that´s whyI wanted to verify if they were correct or they needed any changes. Poli´s option I already had it.
I've done some more reseach on the topic, and I believe that I owe you an apology. I have found more than one source that demonstrates two types of passive sentences, and one of them resembles the type that you wrote in your original post.

However, based on some of the sources I have found, my comments in my previous post (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showpost....38&postcount=3) describe what some sources call the "impersonal passive", while those same sources use the name "personal passive" to describe sentences similar to the ones that you asked about. I think that I will need to research this topic further.

Most of the examples that I have found show active voice sentences with structures much like your active voice exampes: a main clause that contains a subordinate clause that functions as the direct object of the verb of the main clause.

One of the sources provides a list of verbs that are frequenly used as the active-voice verb in the main clause that becomes the passive voice verb in the type of sentences that you aske about. That list of verbs is:

agree / allege / announce / assume / believe / calculate / claim / consider / declare / discover / estimate / expect / find / known / mention / propose / recommend / rumour / show / suppose / suggest / understand

A different source states:
Quote:
The verbs think, believe, say, report, know, expect, consider, understand etc are used in the following passive patterns in personal and impersonal constructions...
All of these verbs are either verbs describing saying something or having an opinion about something. I do not know yet whether verbs with other types of meaning can also be made passive in the manner that you are ask about.

So, looking at your original question again, and comparing them to the different sets of examples that I have seen, I have to concede that they seem to be valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBINDESBOIS View Post
IS this correct?
1.People noticed that the players did not stand the heat.
The players were noticed not to have stood the heat. ???
This is consistent with some of the examples I have seen.

2. The parents had believed that the teacher knew all the answers.
the teacher had been believed to have known all the answers.??
Also consistent.

3. My parents announced that the children will not go to the museum the next week
the children were announced not to go to the museum the following week.??

The few examples that I have found so far that have future tense in the dependent clause all use future progressive rather than simple future.
Your active voice sentence can also be written as:
"My parents announce that the children will not be going to the museum the following week."
Based on this re-written active voice sentence, your second sentence could be written as:
"The children were announced not to be going to the museum the following week.

Your sentences with simple future "will not go" changing to "not to go" may also be correct.


4. Susan has said that she has always wanted to be a dentist.
She has been said to have always wanted to be a dentist.??
Also consistent, especially if the underlying meaning of your first sentence is "Susan has said that she (someone else, not Susan herself) has always wanted to be a dentist."
Congratulations on finding a bit of English grammar and usage that challenges us native speakers of English!

Last edited by wrholt; March 28, 2019 at 11:40 PM.
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