Can I Omit reflexive pronoun in spatial situations?

[arnoldsg72]

Is it necessary reflexive pronoun (or indirect object pronoun) to show possession of bodypart or clothing when subject or subject pronoun is mentioned in sentence? For example which below sentences is correct?
1- Ella rompió los anteojos. Or 2- Ella se rompió los anteojos.
3- Ella juntó las manos para orar. Or 4-Ella se juntó las manos para orar.
5-Ella cortó el dedo. Or 6-Ella se cortó el dedo.
7-Sam arregla el pelo. Or 8-Sam se arregla el pelo.
9-Lolita lava las manos antes de comer. Or 10-Lolita se lava las manos antes de comer.

According to below refrences 1,3,6,7 and 10 is correct. Now i am confused whether reflexive pronoun is arbitrary or not?

sentences references:
spanish411.net/Spanish-Possessive-Adjectives-Pronouns
spanish.about.com/od/adjectives/a/possessive_adjectives.htm
users.ipfw.edu/jehle/courses/pronoun1.htm
cliffsnotes.com/foreign-languages/spanish/spanish-ii/pronouns/reflexive-pronouns

[Julvenzor]

The reflexive pronoun isn't arbitrary. In a language, few things are optional.

1) She broke somebody's glasses.
2) She broke her glasses.
3) [Correct]
4) [Incorrect: the verb "juntar" isn't reflexive; however, it's can be used as pronominal meaning "to gather together"]
5) She cut somebody's finger.
6) She cut her finger.
7) [Incorrect: One "fixes" objects, but "se fixes" a body part; the person is expressed by an indirect object]
8) [Correct]
9) [Incorrect: One "washes" objects, but "se washes" oneself or his body parts]
10) [Correct]


Better now?

[Rusty]

Sometimes you are talking about reflexive grammar and sometimes you are not.

In number 1, the subject broke somebody's glasses and took the blame for it. There is no pronominal verb in use here.
In number 2, you need to add two words, 'a' and 'le', to make the sentence correct-A ella se le rompió los anteojos. This is how we describe accidental breakage. There is no reflexive usage here. The glasses are the subject.

Number 3 is correct because the action does not reflect back on the subject. Her hands are being joined.
Number 4 is not possible. The meaning of the pronominal verb juntarse is 'meet with', 'hang out with', 'pair up with' or 'move closer together to' someone else.

Numbers 5 and 6 follow the same grammar described for numbers 1 and 2. You need to add 'a' and 'le' to number 6 to indicate that it was an accident. Then both sentences are valid.

Number 7 is correct, but Sam isn't arranging his own hair. In number 8, he is. 'Arreglarse' is a pronominal verb that is used reflexively.

Numbers 9 and 10 are like numbers 7 and 8. Lolita is not washing her own hands in the first sentence, but is doing so in the second. 'Lavarse' is a pronominal verb that is used reflexively.

[arnoldsg72]

Hi friends,
pronominal verb must be used with reflexive pronoun. But i think it does not mean that we cannot use reflexive pronoun with non-pronominal verb.
For example "juntar" is non-pronominal in below sentence:
Ella se junto las manos para orar.
But I think this sentence is correct. "se" is just for showing possessor of hands. And why does it use "se" not "le"? Because the subject(Ella) and possessor of hands (her) are the same. So I translate this sentence in this way: she joined her hands to pray.
Now Imagine below scenario:
A woman catches her child's hands and joined his hands forcely and make him to pray.
With this view I say this sentence:
Ella le junto las manos para orar. = she joined his hands to pray.
If i am in mistaken please guide me.
Thanks.

[Rusty]

You cannot make 'juntar' reflexive and still keep the meaning of 'touch together' (when hands are joined, they are touching each other). 'Juntar' is not a pronominal verb. Therefore, it cannot be a reflexive verb, since a reflexive verb is a pronominal verb. It cannot be forced to become a pronominal verb. Pronominal verbs exist and non-pronominal verbs exist. You cannot force them to be something different.

Ella juntó las manos para orar.
= She folded her (own) hands to pray. (When the definite article is used, 'own hands' is the meaning.)

Ella juntó sus manos para orar.
= She folded her (some other female's) hands to pray.
= She folded his hands to pray.
= She folded their hands to pray.
(Context is needed to know which translation to use.)

Ella le juntó las manos para orar.
= She folded someone else's hands for them to pray.
(If context is insufficient to determine whose hands are being folded, add an indirect object to clarify to whom the indirect object pronoun makes reference.)

[Julvenzor]

Well, sorry, you're partly right. I told you the sentence four was incorrect because, not knowing your level in Spanish, it was difficult to explain in a easy way to understand why it could be admissible. There are some verbs that admit the called "construcciones reflejas de interés".

What does it mean?

Sometimes, people use a transitive verb (normal) with reflexive pronouns in order to emphasize the action: "I for myself do something...". I have found a good reference for this subject in the following link from the "Centro virtual Cervantes".

More frequent examples: beber, comer, ganar, saber, tomar, pensar, suponer, temer.

In Spain and other countries, we use "se pensó" when a person make a mistake or a temerity upon thinking he's doing something correctly:

Se pensó que ganaría un dineral y al final acabó estafado. ¡Idiota!


http://cvc.cervantes.es/literatura/c...ce18-19_24.pdf

(Look up since page five, mainly eight, until the end)


Note: There is an important regional factor in this topic.