Catalan Independence

[Zarnium]

Could someone explain to me the ins and outs of the current Catalan independence movement in Spain? I've done some cursory research, but I'm a little lost as to exactly why they want independence, why the Spanish government doesn't want them to, and how this is affecting the people of Spain socially.

I know that they want independence generally because they're somewhat culturally distinct and because they feel they'd be better off financially, given the massive economic problems of Spain. I also know generally that the Spanish National Government doesn't want them to leave because it wouldn't be good for the rest of Spain financially, and because national governments usually don't want parts of their country to secede on general principle. However, I don't really know the specifics of either side.

How much support in Catalonia is there for secession, and does it have any chance of happening? Also, does the Spanish government have any process in place that would allow such a secession without new legislation being written? In the United States, for example, there simply is not any way for a state to leave the union. Existing laws would have to be modified for such a thing to happen.

How do the Spanish and Catalan people feel about each other? Can they travel freely between regions without any undue harassment or hardship? Is this feud only between governments, or is there antipathy between the people of both regions?

To be honest, as an American, when I hear about people in other countries talking about secession over financial or cultural reasons, it sounds a little odd to me . Almost no one in any state in the US for the last hundred years has considered true secession as a means of achieving political goals. We have some rather bitter political wars, but these are based on political affiliation and religion rather than on geographical location. Perhaps this pops up in Europe so much more because they have older, long-standing cultures there, whereas most people in America are descendants of comparatively recent immigrants.

[poli]

As an American, this should not sound too strange too you, because secession for financial and cultural reasons is part of US history. Some of the issues of US Civil War are still issues Americans deal with today.

Some Catalonians see themselves as somewhat less peninsular and more European than the rest of Spain. They have a distinct language and often distrust for the federal government based in Madrid which is a rival city to Catalonian Barcelona in the way NYC and LA used to be. Kids in school are taught mostly in Catalan. Separatists have their own flag which is the traditional red and yellow striped flag but with a blue triangle with a star in the middle of it--kind of like Puerto Rico's flag
but with hepatitis.

The Catalonian distrust for Castile is nothing new, but as you mentioned distain for what is seen as incompetent government hasn't helped. Nevertheless. there is absolutely no problem traveling to and from both regions. Probably the majority of Catalonians in Spain do not want to separate. There was an enormous rally on Columbus day in favor of remaining unified.

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by Zarnium

Almost no one in any state in the US for the last hundred years has considered true secession as a means of achieving political goals.

Apart from those who funded the IRA. (And probably a number of Texans - or at least, that's the impression I get ).

Originally Posted by Zarnium

How much support in Catalonia is there for secession, and does it have any chance of happening?

My recollection of polling data is that there's majority support for it. On that basis, I would hesitate to say that it has no chance of happening. But quantifying the chance that it happens in, say, the next 20 years is hard because there are so many factors to take into account.

If Scotland votes for independence from the UK next year and suffers because of leaving the EU, that could swing opinion in the other regions which have movements advocating independence from an EU member state.

Even if it doesn't, one lesson from Scotland is that the scope of the referendum matters. Both sides would try to "gerrymander" the vote by defining who is eligible.

Originally Posted by Zarnium

Also, does the Spanish government have any process in place that would allow such a secession without new legislation being written?

No. The Spanish government points out that the Spanish Constitution states (Article 2) that

La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas.

Originally Posted by Zarnium

How do the Spanish and Catalan people feel about each other? Can they travel freely between regions without any undue harassment or hardship? Is this feud only between governments, or is there antipathy between the people of both regions?

The stereotype of Catalans is that they're stingy. It is also not unknown for Spaniards from non-Catalan-speaking regions who visit Cataluña to find that people refuse to speak Castilian to them, which causes some aggravation. But as an outsider who's lived in a neighbouring autonomous region (think state) for almost six years, I haven't observed much in the way of real antipathy.

[Zarnium]

Thanks for the response .

Originally Posted by poli

As an American, this should not sound too strange too you, because secession for financial and cultural reasons is part of US history. Some of the issues of US Civil War are still issues Americans deal with today.

It's been a problem in the past, yes, but actual secession has not been on the table in living memory that I know of. There was all that hubbub over Texas, but if I recall correctly, only 125,000 people or so signed the petition, in a state with a population of 26 million.

[poli]

Before he detracted it, the popular governor of Texas spoke in favor of succession. True, slavery was abolished very long ago but other civil rights issues remain and certainly played a big role in 20th century politics as they do now. I agree with you in that succession is not a viable political tool so far, but resistance to federal intrusion in these matters smells like the same old stuff.

Anyway, I think issues of state's rights and federal rights in the USA are very old and quite fractious. In that way issues Spain faces should not sound too foreign to US natives.

[Villa]

Originally Posted by Zarnium

Could someone explain to me the ins and outs of the current Catalan independence movement in Spain? I've done some cursory research, but I'm a little lost as to exactly why they want independence, why the Spanish government doesn't want them to, and how this is affecting the people of Spain socially.

I know that they want independence generally because they're somewhat culturally distinct and because they feel they'd be better off financially, given the massive economic problems of Spain. I also know generally that the Spanish National Government doesn't want them to leave because it wouldn't be good for the rest of Spain financially, and because national governments usually don't want parts of their country to secede on general principle. However, I don't really know the specifics of either side.

How much support in Catalonia is there for secession, and does it have any chance of happening? Also, does the Spanish government have any process in place that would allow such a secession without new legislation being written? In the United States, for example, there simply is not any way for a state to leave the union. Existing laws would have to be modified for such a thing to happen.

How do the Spanish and Catalan people feel about each other? Can they travel freely between regions without any undue harassment or hardship? Is this feud only between governments, or is there antipathy between the people of both regions?

To be honest, as an American, when I hear about people in other countries talking about secession over financial or cultural reasons, it sounds a little odd to me . Almost no one in any state in the US for the last hundred years has considered true secession as a means of achieving political goals. We have some rather bitter political wars, but these are based on political affiliation and religion rather than on geographical location. Perhaps this pops up in Europe so much more because they have older, long-standing cultures there, whereas most people in America are descendants of comparatively recent immigrants.

Hola Zarnium,

“We are like we are because Franco’s dictatorship has made us so”.

Francisco Franco fue un dictador de España terrible. Él fue
a la par con Mussolini y Hitler. Lee a continuación y déjeme
saber lo que piensas. A little history of what has gone on in
Catalonia might help you understand the independence
movement in Catalonia. Let me know what you think of it and
if you can understand a little better about why they would want
to be independent.

Franco’s cultural genocide against Catalonia

[Alexls]

Catalonia wants to hold a referendum to decide whether people become independent. The central government doesn't want because it says violates the constitution. But it really is an economic issue. No money (high public debt) and high unemployment.

The central government is responsible for distributing between comunidades autonomas such as Cataluña, Andalucia, etc ..


With the crisis, the comunidades autónomas receive less money. They have to cut public services. Citizens are angry. Catalan politicians blame the government and they threaten with the independence.


When everything was fine, no one talked about independence.


I have Catalan family.


This is my opinion hope I've helped.Excuse me, my English.

[Villa]

Originally Posted by Alexls

Catalonia wants to hold a referendum to decide whether people become independent. The central government doesn't want because it says violates the constitution. But it really is an economic issue. No money (high public debt) and high unemployment.

The central government is responsible for distributing between comunidades autonomas such as Cataluña, Andalucia, etc ..


With the crisis, the comunidades autónomas receive less money. They have to cut public services. Citizens are angry. Catalan politicians blame the government and they threaten with the independence.


When everything was fine, no one talked about independence.


I have Catalan family.


This is my opinion hope I've helped.Excuse me, my English.

The Catalan language in public was banned under the dictatorship of Francisco Franco from 1939 to 1975. Franco was just as bad as Mussolini in Italy at the time. Imagine banning people from speaking their own language. How bad is that? Best thing that ever happened was when Franco passed because now in Catalonia all school teaching is conducted in Catalan, under what is known as the "immersion" system. Spanish is taught as a language subject. Spanish is bascially taught then as a second language in Spain in Catalonia.

[Alexls]

Para comprender el conflicto España-Cataluña, os recomiendo los siguientes libros:

Victus, Albert Sánchez Piñol

España invertebrada, Ortega y Gasset

http://juango.es/Ortega%20Y%20Gasset...vertebrada.pdf

un saludo

[Sancho Panther]

Rajoy will not concede independence because if he did he would then be morally obliged to concede it to the Basque Provinces who fought a prolonged and violent terrorist campaign in support of independence which Franco brutally resisted. Then Andalucía and Asturias would seek it, and so on until they'd all tumble like dominoes.

Furthermore I am convinced that only Barcelona City could be economically self-sufficient and rural Barcelona province and all Girona, Lleida and Tarragona would have to endure poverty.

Furthermore the President of the Generalitat has declared that welfare and social benefits would not increase and nor would taxes be reduced.

The there's the question of admission to the Euro; funding a separate defence budget etc. etc. The problems are endless - my personal view is that it's a stupid and irrational pipe-dream.

In the highly unlikely event of it happening it could even bring down the whole of tha the Spanish State.