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I'm having some trouble with word order

 

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  #1  
Old March 13, 2014, 06:24 PM
cb4 cb4 is offline
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I'm having some trouble with word order

Hello everybody,

This is my first post, I would like to thank everybody in advance.

So I took Spanish for years in school, but I haven't taken it in like 9 years, and I never really cared about it then, I just learned how to past the test.

So, now I am learning it because I want to, and because it helps with my job.

Anyway, I am currently confused about sentence construction, because I have read the correct word order of a sentence is 1) Subject 2) Indirect object pronoun (if any) 3) Direct object pronoun (if any) 4) verb 5) objects that are not pronouns

Seems to work for the most part, but there are a few exceptions I have noticed while listening to my Pimsleur recordings, and I was wondering why they were different:

1) Escribir lo. So, I was wondering why it is "Escribir lo", and not "lo escribir" given how lo is a direct object pronoun and should therefore come first. Somebody then told me that in the imperative mood, the verb comes first. This makes sense for "Escriba lo por favor", when you are commanding somebody else to do it. But, I also heard "Voy a escribir lo"...in this case, it is not a command, I am saying "I am going to write it down", so why does lo come after escribir? Is it because escribir is the second verb in the sentence? I am guessing that might be it, because I also heard "voy a hablar lo", and I don't understand why again, the direct object pronoun is coming after the verb, but in both cases there are two verbs in the sentence, so is that the reasoning? Same thing for "Quiero ver lo mi padre" for I want to see my father. What is the exact rule with that?

2) What is the word ordering for questions? I can't seem to follow the order and figure out the pattern.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
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  #2  
Old March 13, 2014, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb4 View Post
Anyway, I am currently confused about sentence construction, because I have read the correct word of a sentence is 1) Subject 2) Indirect object pronoun (if any) 3) Direct object pronoun (if any) 4) verb 5) objects that are not pronouns
(Spanish word order is less strict as far as placement of subject and verb complements (objects).)

...

1) Escribir lo. (Actually, it's one word. The direct object pronoun is suffixed to the infinitive.) ... Somebody then told me that in the imperative mood, the verb comes first. This makes sense for "Escriba lo por favor" (In the imperative, the direct object pronoun is also suffixed. The stressed syllable in the verb must remain, so an accent mark is written. Escríbalo.) ... But, I also heard "Voy a escribir lo" (Same rule as before, the pronoun is suffixed to an infinitive. Voy a escribirlo.) ... "Voy a hablarlo" "Quiero verlo a mi padre"

2) What is the word ordering for questions? I can't seem follow the order and figure out the pattern.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
In a question, the subject usually follows the verb.

¿Habla usted español?
¿Adónde va Juan?
¿A quién escribe María?


Welcome to the forums!
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  #3  
Old March 13, 2014, 09:22 PM
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Awesome, thank you. Any idea on the other part?
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Old March 13, 2014, 11:40 PM
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wrholt wrholt is offline
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There are two parts to look at: (a) the order of object pronouns when there are two or more of them, and (b) the placement of object pronouns with regard to their verbs.

(a) The order of object pronouns is fixed, regardless of whether an individual pronoun is reflexive, direct or indirect. The order is always: 1. se, 2. 2nd-person ('te' or 'os'), 3. 1st-person ('me' or 'nos'), 4. 3rd-person ('lo', 'la', 'le', 'los', 'las' or 'les').

There may be at most 1 pronoun for each position. If there are two 3rd-person pronouns, one of them is 'se' and 'se' is either reflexive or indirect.

(b) Object pronouns always stand next to their verbs.

The position of object pronouns with regard to single-word verbs is straight-forward: they always follow and attach to infinitives, gerunds and positive imperatives, and they always precede as independent words all indicative tenses (present, imperfect, preterite, future and conditional), all subjunctive tenses (present and past), and all negative imperatives (which are invariably identical to present subjunctive).

The position of object pronouns in relation to verbs that contain two or more words can be more complicated. If the first element is a finite verb (it has person, number, tense and mood), in general all of the object pronouns may precede that first word as individual word, and if any element is either an infinitive or a gerund, in general all of the object pronouns may follow that word and be attached to it.

There are also a few situations where it is not possible to group all of the pronouns together. However, if you not yet a relatively advanced student of Spanish you may not be ready to try to learn about these situations yet.
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Old March 14, 2014, 10:09 AM
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Wow, thank you very much
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Old March 17, 2014, 09:44 AM
cb4 cb4 is offline
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I have a few more questions. Instead of making a whole new thread I will post them here:

1) tengo que vs haber....what's the difference? I understand that tener is he possessive "have" while haber is "have to" In the past participle sense. But then what is "tener que". Doesn't that mean the exact same thing as haber?

2) me a dicho. This means he told me, right? So why is dicho conjugated in the "yo" form, when the person who is performing the speaking is not "yo"?

3) Le dicho. "I told him". Why isn't it lo dicho? Isn't the person being told a direct object and therefore should be lo?

Thanks again
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Old March 17, 2014, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb4 View Post
I have a few more questions. Instead of making a whole new thread I will post them here:

1) tengo que vs haber....what's the difference? I understand that tener is he possessive "have" while haber is "have to" In the past participle sense. But then what is "tener que". Doesn't that mean the exact same thing as haber?

See below


2) me a dicho. This means he told me, right? So why is dicho conjugated in the "yo" form, when the person who is performing the speaking is not "yo"?

"Dicho" is a participle (told), not a conjugated form. Imagine the case of "spoken".


See below

3) Le dicho. "I told him". Why isn't it lo dicho? Isn't the person being told a direct object and therefore should be lo?

The person is expressed by an indirect object (OI in Spanish). The thing said does through a direct object (OD).

See below

Thanks again

Le escribo en español para que vaya cogiendo soltura.

Uf... Son demasiados conceptos y muy variados; por ello, tendrá que dedicarle el tiempo suficiente para lograr asimilarlos.

1)

Have to = Tener que / Haber de
Have (verbo único) = Tener [Conjugado]
Have (formas compuestas) = Haber [Conjugado]

2) He told me = (Él) me dijo... [Sujeto + OD + pretérito]

Normalmente, el pretérito se contrapone al past simple.

(Él) me ha dicho = He has told me...
(Yo) le he dicho = I have told him...

El participio siempre persiste igual, tanto en inglés como en español.


3) Lamento comunicarle que ha abierto la caja de Pandora o, si gusta mejor, la entrada a Mordor. La utilización de pronombres para el OD y OI suponen un infierno para los propios hispanohablantes. Habitualmente hay un motivo por el cual sólo es correcto uno y no otro; pero, con cierta frecuencia, los verbos se vuelven caprichosos y aceptan un determinado pronombre por motivos etimológicos o contextuales.

Him funciona en inglés como OD y OI. Con el verbo "decir", la persona siempre se indica por medio de un OI; pues es precisamente lo dicho aquello que expresa mediante OD.
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