Problem with subjunctive ... in English!

[aleCcowaN]

I was watching Across the Universe, a musical drama plotted around The Beatles's classics, and I have a problem to parse/understand this part of the famous song "If I fell":"If I trust in you, oh please
don't run and hide,
if I love you too, oh please
don't hurt my pride like her

'Cause I couldn't stand the pain
And I would be sad
If our new love was in vain"
Why couldn't and not wouldn't? I fail to see there anything but a hypothetical statement ('porque no soportaría el dolor')

[Rusty]

The subjunctive wasn't used anywhere. Not a surprise, since this is English we're talking about. ;)

This phrasing can be used to mean a past action:
couldn't stand = wasn't able to stand = no podía soportar

AND a conditional (hypothetical) future action:
couldn't stand = wouldn't be able to stand = no podría soportar

[aleCcowaN]

OK, thank you. So it has to do with the particular modal verb involved (can), doesn't it? Can I say something like "I couldn't stand the pain if you were untrue" as a conditional-hypothetical sentence?

[Rusty]

Yes, and yes.

[Perikles]

don't hurt my pride like her
'Cause I couldn't stand the pain
And I would be sad
If our new love was in vain"


The subjunctive wasn't used anywhere. Not a surprise, since this is English we're talking about. ;)

Well, the irony is that there should be a subjunctive. There is an unspoken phrase "if you were to behave like her", but in the above, the "If our new love was in vain" is quite incorrect in my book, because it should be "If our new love were in vain".

I think it is a bad idea analysing English in pop song lyrics.

[Awaken]

Well, the irony is that there should be a subjunctive. There is an unspoken phrase "if you were to behave like her", but in the above, the "If our new love was in vain" is quite incorrect in my book, because it should be "If our new love were in vain".

I think it is a bad idea analysing English in pop song lyrics.

Yep. "If our new love were" :good:

[aleCcowaN]

Yes, and yes.

Thanks, again :thumbsup:

Well, the irony is that there should be a subjunctive. There is an unspoken phrase "if you were to behave like her", but in the above, the "If our new love was in vain" is quite incorrect in my book, because it should be "If our new love were in vain".

I think it is a bad idea analysing English in pop song lyrics.
I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. Incredibly, I'm still seeing subjunctive there, a fifteen-hundred Spanish fashion like: "porque no soportare la pena, y triste estaría si nuestro amor en vano fue". Also "fue" conveys the notion of deception, disappointment and loneliness. Anyway, it may be a glitch of my brain -yesterday I had many incursions of English interfering my Spanish parsing, something funny and new to me-.

About the lyrics, I think there's a twist there -you are right about songs not being the right source for learning the structure of a language- because the lyrics, sung 100% original, "should" have had "hers" instead of "her" in order to adjust to the plot, because it's a female who's singing and the wanna-be boyfriend hast just left his girlfriend in Liverpool with promises of undying love.

[I had written German-Old English "hast", holly guacamole! glitches everywhere, my brain is melting down]

NEW TWIST:

I've just found a work entitled Subjunctive in English - A Brief Introduction (http://clasfaculty.ucdenver.edu/tphillips/grammar/subjunctive_intro_english.pdf) from a scholar.

Some excepts from the text:

"irreal situations / hypothetical situations that didn’t or won’t take place

I would take you to Berlin. but I don’t have an airplane.
If it rained, we could go to a film."

"Use the subjunctive of a modal verb then add the infinitive of the lexical verb.

I might come to your party if you invite some of my friends, too.
You should know that answer by now, we practiced that problem three times already.
Could you help me on the weekend if you have time?"

"(S) = subjunctive (example verbs are underlined)
(I) = indicative (verbs that contrast with the subjunctive are underlined)
...
(S) I could read the report to you, if I had my glasses. (hypothetical situation)
(I) I can read the report to you, now that I have my glasses. (reality)"

It makes me wonder if it's a matter of opinion or we have been influenced by border cases within the Spanish verb taxonomy (There are tons of usages where Spanish uses conditional tense in a subjunctive mood and subjunctive in an indicative mood)

[poli]

I really think that the conditional tense has taken the place of a good deal of the tradional English subjunctive, and calling the English conditional subjuctive is stretching the meaning which can confuse matters. Might, could, would eliminates much of the subjunctive use in English, but you will often find the true subjunctive in compound sentences in which might, could and would are used.

[Perikles]

"irreal situations / hypothetical situations that didn’t or won’t take place

I would take you to Berlin. but I don’t have an airplane.
If it rained, we could go to a film."

"Use the subjunctive of a modal verb then add the infinitive of the lexical verb.

...
(S) I could read the report to you, if I had my glasses. (hypothetical situation)
(I) I can read the report to you, now that I have my glasses. (reality)"

I agree with Poli, I think you (and your link!) are confusing subjunctives and conditionals because the conditionals are in situations where a corresponding subjuctive is suppressed, as in the song text.

(S) I could read the report to you, if I had my glasses.

Here, the "could" is conditional, but the "had" is subjunctive, an exact parallel with Spanish.

Modal verbs in English do not have subjunctive moods, but the "could" is clearly a conditional, equivalent to "would be able to". This is confusing because it has the same form as the imperfect indicative of "can" as in "Ten years ago, I could run 10 miles".

By the way, at first glance that link you give is full of errors. Some may be simply a case of definition. For example:

he states there are three moods. What about the interrogative mood?

"If it rained, we could go to a film" is an example of what? I don't see the "could" as a subjunctive at all. The sentence could be rewritten as
"If it were to rain, we would be able to go to a film".

In the end, it is a question of definition, but the above link just confuses the issue.

[aleCcowaN]

Thank you both for your insights on this subject. I really appreciate that.

I reckon the author developed that leaflet as supporting material for English speakers majoring in German. I studied German six years in school -and learnt nothing- and last time I payed attention to it was in 1981, but I remember conditional being up to replace subjunctive from a Spanish point of view.

It's very instructive to me to talk about this because English modal verbs take an outstanding role in the English verbal system that Spanish speakers find difficult to grasp. I'm still not 100% sure I wouldn't use a modal auxiliary to convey subjunctive, should I need to.

[Perikles]

I'm still not 100% sure I wouldn't use a modal auxiliary to convey subjunctive, should I need to.I wouldn't if I were you. :D

[aleCcowaN]

I wouldn't if I were you. :D

But, if I should use some modal verb to convey future subjunctive, will they understand me both sides of the Atlantic? :D

[poli]

Should you do this in the future, chances are you will/would be understood on both sides of the Atlantic and elsewhere in the English-speaking world.
Suena muy culto. Más común se oye if I do this in the future.
El subjuntivo existe en inglés contemporáneo pero frecuentamente lo
evitamos si podemos porque suena un poquito precioso por lo menos en
EEUU.

[aleCcowaN]

Muchas gracias, poli ¿Así que suena pretencioso? Yo lo he usado sólo en textos más o menos formales y me lo enseñó una arquitecta estadounidense a la que yo le enseñaba castellano a cambio de conversar en inglés. Como hablante me siento como deportista con una pierna enyesada (escayolada) cuando no puedo usar medios gramaticales y tengo que recurrir a un hojaldre de vocabulario que difícilmente algún día domine. Pero bueno, me tengo que resignar y pagar el precio.

[poli]

It only sounds pretentious if you use it invariably. As someone who loves
the English language, I believe that it is wise to pepper the language
with its vast lantinate and germanic vocabulary, and make use of all the verb tenses sujunctive included.

Some people, many of whom speak nonstop, always say things the same
way. This lack of variance displays weak creativivity of or even low ability to learn to make use of the mega-machine that is English. Please be aware of the verb tenses and make use of them when you become familiar with them.

For foreign speakers it is way more acceptable to stay safe and not vary. I know that, as a semi-Spanish speaker without the security of a native speak, I have a tendency to speak in a more formularic form, and most of the time I am pleased to get the across a secas.