The rest of exercise 10-1 (present progressive)

[laepelba]

Whew! This exercise ran me ragged. :eek: I have several questions. None of them is about the verb in the progressive tense, but the verb preceding it... I will give you the answers that the book gave, followed by my question. Most are questions about imperfect vs. preterit. When I asked the question (previously) about "necesitaba" vs. "necesitó", I thought I understood ... but apparently I did not....... :thinking:

12) (continuar, jugar) Cuando la maestra los dejó solos, los chicos continuaron jugando.
Q: I wrote "continuaban". Why preterit here?

14) (estar, hablar) El pintor no quería que nosotros estuviéramos hablando cerca de su lugar de trabajo.
Q: I wrote "estábamos". Why preterit here?

17) (quedarse, dormir) La Bella Durmiente del Bosque se quedó durmiendo por 100 años.
Q: I wrote "se quedaba". Why preterit here?

19) (seguir, caerse) No pudo abrir el paracaídas, así que siguió cayendo hasta dar con la tierra.
Q's:
- What does "hasta dar con la tierra" mean?
- I wrote "seguía". Why preterit here?
- Why did they give me "caerse" and then there is no object pronoun? Or did the book's answer mistakenly leave out the "se"? I wrote "cayéndose"...

25) (estar, morir) Cuando su abuelo estaba muriéndose, él vivía en otro país.
Q: First of all, they always give a "se" in the prompt if they want one in the answer. So is the "se" in "muriéndose" supposed to be there or not?

29) (continuar, hervir) Se nos olvidó la olla y continuó hirviendo hasta evaporarse toda el agua.
Q: I wrote "continuaba". Why preterit here?

Ugh!! I am really having a difficult time with this..... Thank you in advance for any suggestions you can give me!!

[Rusty]

dar con = to find | to come upon | to come across
In this case, to hit (to find) the earth (very abruptly :eek:).

[chileno]

Whew! This exercise ran me ragged. :eek: I have several questions. None of them is about the verb in the progressive tense, but the verb preceding it... I will give you the answers that the book gave, followed by my question. Most are questions about imperfect vs. preterit. When I asked the question (previously) about "necesitaba" vs. "necesitó", I thought I understood ... but apparently I did not....... :thinking:

12) (continuar, jugar) Cuando la maestra los dejó solos, los chicos continuaron jugando.
Q: I wrote "continuaban". Why preterit here?

14) (estar, hablar) El pintor no quería que nosotros estuviéramos hablando cerca de su lugar de trabajo.
Q: I wrote "estábamos". Why preterit here? Because of "querer" the answer is preterit of the subjunctive.

17) (quedarse, dormir) La Bella Durmiente del Bosque se quedó durmiendo por 100 años.
Q: I wrote "se quedaba". Why preterit here? It was only for a 100 years. :)

19) (seguir, caerse) No pudo abrir el paracaídas, así que siguió cayendo hasta dar con la tierra.
Q's:
- What does "hasta dar con la tierra" mean?
- I wrote "seguía". Why preterit here?
- Why did they give me "caerse" and then there is no object pronoun? Or did the book's answer mistakenly leave out the "se"? I wrote "cayéndose"... it was their mistake.

25) (estar, morir) Cuando su abuelo estaba muriéndose:good:, él vivía en otro país.
Q: First of all, they always give a "se" in the prompt if they want one in the answer. So is the "se" in "muriéndose" supposed to be there or not? Yes

29) (continuar, hervir) Se nos olvidó la olla y continuó hirviendo hasta evaporarse toda el agua.
Q: I wrote "continuaba". Why preterit here?

Ugh!! I am really having a difficult time with this..... Thank you in advance for any suggestions you can give me!!

The pattern will give you clues.

[wrholt]

I agree with chileno, the pattern will give you clues.

Items 12, 17, 19, and 29 each refer to one specific event that completed. As an extreme generalization, completion = preterite. Specifically:
12: One instance of leaving, one instance of continuing to plan.
17: One instance of sleeping that ended after a named period of time.
19: One instance of falling that ended with hitting the ground.
29: One instance forgetting the pot and having water boiling away that ended when all of the water was gone.

Item 14 is a statement of a wish, which requires subunctive in the dependent clause. As the main verb is past, the subjunctive is past.

[laepelba]

The pattern will give you clues.

I agree with chileno, the pattern will give you clues.

Items 12, 17, 19, and 29 each refer to one specific event that completed. As an extreme generalization, completion = preterite. Specifically:
12: One instance of leaving, one instance of continuing to plan.
17: One instance of sleeping that ended after a named period of time.
19: One instance of falling that ended with hitting the ground.
29: One instance forgetting the pot and having water boiling away that ended when all of the water was gone.

Item 14 is a statement of a wish, which requires subunctive in the dependent clause. As the main verb is past, the subjunctive is past.

Uyyyyyyyy ... No, I don't understand....... :( I thought I did when I asked the question about "necesitaba" vs. "necesitó" here: http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=7211 ... and the pattern here does not give my pea-sized brain any clues.... :(

For example, if I compare #12 here to my "necesitaba" vs. "necesitó" question, I would say that the woman only had one instance of needing to go to the bus stop ... so shouldn't it be "necesitó" there by the same logic? Comparing it to #17, 19 and 29, her need for going to the bus stop ended after a period of time (when she got on the bus).......

In that other thread, I asked if the imperfect was used more with a state of being at the time and the preterit with something that happens.... So in #12, I was thinking that the students were in a continuous state of playing at the time, in #17 I was thinking that her sleep was a state of being, in #19 a state of falling, and in #29 the same thing, that the pot was in a state of boiling.....

I don't have any idea how to find the thing that will "trip" in my mind about this............ If I had time, I would type all of the sentences in this exercise that required me to choose between imperfect & preterit so you could see which ones I chose correctly and which I did not. But alas, I don't have time right now for typing up correct answers......... (sigh....)

Also, with #25, how do I know when to use "morirse" and when to use "morir"? That one kind of threw me off....

Thank you, both of you....

[chileno]

Uyyyyyyyy ... No, I don't understand....... :( I thought I did when I asked the question about "necesitaba" vs. "necesitó" here: http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=7211 ... and the pattern here does not give my pea-sized brain any clues.... :(

For example, if I compare #12 here to my "necesitaba" vs. "necesitó" question, I would say that the woman only had one instance of needing to go to the bus stop ... so shouldn't it be "necesitó" there by the same logic? Comparing it to #17, 19 and 29, her need for going to the bus stop ended after a period of time (when she got on the bus).......

In that other thread, I asked if the imperfect was used more with a state of being at the time and the preterit with something that happens.... So in #12, I was thinking that the students were in a continuous state of playing at the time, in #17 I was thinking that her sleep was a state of being, in #19 a state of falling, and in #29 the same thing, that the pot was in a state of boiling.....

I don't have any idea how to find the thing that will "trip" in my mind about this............ If I had time, I would type all of the sentences in this exercise that required me to choose between imperfect & preterit so you could see which ones I chose correctly and which I did not. But alas, I don't have time right now for typing up correct answers......... (sigh....)

Also, with #25, how do I know when to use "morirse" and when to use "morir"? That one kind of threw me off....

Thank you, both of you....

Stop saying you are not intelligent!

You are stubborn. :)

Now, I highlighted in red what I told you about the clue each phrase gives you.

As for morir vs morirse. In this case they mean the same. About placement of that "se"

Cuando su abuelo estaba muriendo...

Cuando su abuelo se estaba muriendo...

Cuando su abuelo estaba muriéndose...


To me all three are correct, although I might be grammatically wrong. :)

Again, please follow my advice, transcribe a novel from Spanish to Spanish. Just transcribe it. The words you don't understand, look them up in a Spanish - Spanish dictionary, if you don;t understand the definition, then go to a bilingual dictionary.

Please, don't try to make sense grammatically out of what you are reading, just understand what you are reading.

You know more than enough grammar to make sense and understand what's wrong in a paragraph/sentence, later on, once you have acquired more practice reading and making sense out of what you are reading.

Please, let grammar go momentarily and enjoy the language learning experience. I promise you, and I know you'll come back to it with a vengeance. :D

[wrholt]

Uyyyyyyyy ... No, I don't understand....... :( I thought I did when I asked the question about "necesitaba" vs. "necesitó" here: http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=7211 ... and the pattern here does not give my pea-sized brain any clues.... :(
....

Oh, good, you're making progress!:applause:

Yes, seriously, you are: feeling confused means you've figured out that your previous understanding of how imperfect/preterite works needs updating, and now you're in the middle of collecting enough information to be able to update it. Just like physicists exploring quantum mechanics and toddlers learning to say "brought" instead of "bringed".

[Luna Azul]

This is not easy to explain. Don't dispair, everybody who's trying to learn Spanish as a second language has the same problem. Sometimes we can't tell why a tense is used rather than the other. It just does.

I copied this from Internet, it explains when either past tense is used:

The preterite is used:

To tell of something that happened once — Fui ayer a la tienda. (I went to the store yesterday.) Escribí la carta. (I wrote the letter.)
To tell of something that happened more than once but with a specific end — Fui ayer a la tienda seis veces. (I went to the store six times yesterday.) Leyó el libro cinco veces. (He read the book five times.)
To indicate the beginning or end of a process — Tuvo frío. (He got cold.) El huracán se terminó a las ocho. (The hurricane was over at 8.)

The imperfect indicative is used:

To tell of past habitual or repeated actions — Iba a la tienda. (I used to go to the store.) Leíamos los libros. (We would read the books.) Lavaban los manos. (They would wash their hands.) Escribía muchas cartas. (I wrote many letters.)
To describe a condition, mental state or state of being from the past — Había una casa aquí. (There used to be a house here.) Era estúpido. (He was stupid.) No te conocía. (I didn't know you.) Quería estar feliz. (He wanted to be happy.) Tenía frío. (He was cold.)
To describe an action that occurred over an unspecified time — Lavaban los manos. (They were washing their hands.) Cuando José tocaba el piano, María comía. (While José was playing the piano, María was eating.)
To indicate time or age in the past — Era la una de la tarde. (It was 1 p.m.) Tenía 43 años. (She was 43 years old.)

Other distinctions:

Background — The imperfect indicative is frequently used to provide the background for an event that is described using the preterite.Era [I] la una de la tarde cuando comió [preterite]. (It was 1 p.m. when she ate.) Yo escribía [I] cuando llegaste [preterite]. (I was writing when you arrived.)
Differences in translated meaning — Because of the way the two tenses are used, some verbs can be translated using differing words in English depending on the tense in Spanish. This is especially true when the preterite is used to indicate the beginning or end of a process.Conocí al presidente. (I met the president.) Conocía al presidente. (I knew the president.) Tuvo frío. (He got cold.) Tenía frío. (He was cold.) Supe escuchar. (I found out how to listen.) Sabía escuchar. (I knew how to listen.)

About.com

I hope it will help you:)

[laepelba]

Okay, so based on the list that Luna posted here, please tell me if my following thinking (in red) is correct...

12) (continuar, jugar) Cuando la maestra los dejó solos, los chicos continuaron jugando.
Q: I wrote "continuaban". Why preterit here?
Is this preterit because it's something that happened just once?

17) (quedarse, dormir) La Bella Durmiente del Bosque se quedó durmiendo por 100 años.
Q: I wrote "se quedaba". Why preterit here?
Is this preterit because the period of time is specified?

19) (seguir, caerse) No pudo abrir el paracaídas, así que siguió cayendo hasta dar con la tierra.
Q: I wrote "seguía". Why preterit here?
I still can't figure out why this is preterit.... :thinking: Is it because it's something that happened once?

29) (continuar, hervir) Se nos olvidó la olla y continuó hirviendo hasta evaporarse toda el agua.
Q: I wrote "continuaba". Why preterit here?
I still can't figure out why this is preterit.... :thinking: Again, is it because it's something that happened just once?


And what about my sentence about the lady who needed to go to the bus? ("La mujer necesitaba ir a la parada de los colectivos.") This only happened just that one time, so I guess when I compare it to the sentences above, I still don't understand why it's not "necesitó"..................... :thinking:

[wrholt]

Okay, so based on the list that Luna posted here, please tell me if my following thinking (in red) is correct...


12, 19, 29: Yes, because it's something that happened a specified number of times (in these cases, once, as you said) AND because you are looking back on the entire thing as a single, completed event in the past.

17: Yes, as you said because the period of time is mentioned (in this case, the elapsed time that marked the completion of the event).

In all of these cases, the completion of the event is asserted. Asserting completion requires the preterite (aka perfect).


And what about my sentence about the lady who needed to go to the bus? ("La mujer necesitaba ir a la parada de los colectivos.") This only happened just that one time, so I guess when I compare it to the sentences above, I still don't understand why it's not "necesitó"..................... :thinking:

In this case, the sentence was embedded within a story, where the focus of time shifts forward from point to point within the story. At the point of the story where you report "La mujer necesitaba ir a la parada", the needing was ongoing and incomplete/unfinished, and nothing has happened yet to end the needing. At this point in the story, the state of needing to go to the bus stop is the background against which the going to the bus starts. All of this requires using the imperfect to describe the state of needing. The fact that the needing ends in the future in relation to that point of the story is irrelevent; you haven't gotten there yet.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

You had already had a correct interpretation about the lady and the bus.

12) The children don't seem to have been playing while the teacher was there, which means that their activity was interrupted until she left. "Continuaban" would be saying that they were playing and kept on playing regardless of the teacher.

17) "Se quedaba" would suggest that she had the habit to take 100-year naps. (!)
That only happened once. ;)

19) The end of the action is given by the fact that he/she finally crashed down. "Seguía cayendo" suggests something happened in the meantime, for example, "seguía cayendo mientras pensaba que se iba a morir".

29) Same as #19. The water finally evaporated, so there is an end to the action.
Nothing happened in the meantime. One could say: "Se nos olvidó la olla y el agua se seguía evaporando mientras nosotros estábamos en el jardín".


Edit: wrholt beat me to reply (gosh, I'm slow!) ;)

[Luna Azul]

Great answers wrholt and Angelica. I have nothing to add.:):)

I was even slower than you, Angelica.. :o

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Luna: One can't be online all the time. ;)

[Luna Azul]

@Luna: One can't be online all the time. ;)

That's right.. :p

[wrholt]

@Luna: One can't be online all the time. ;)

That's right.. :p

Absolutely; even my response was timed nearly 4 hours after the original post.:whistling:

[laepelba]

In this case, the sentence was embedded within a story, where the focus of time shifts forward from point to point within the story. At the point of the story where you report "La mujer necesitaba ir a la parada", the needing was ongoing and incomplete/unfinished, and nothing has happened yet to end the needing. At this point in the story, the state of needing to go to the bus stop is the background against which the going to the bus starts. All of this requires using the imperfect to describe the state of needing. The fact that the needing ends in the future in relation to that point of the story is irrelevent; you haven't gotten there yet.

So, all of that overrides the fact that the "needing" only happened once and has been completed.....

You had already had a correct interpretation about the lady and the bus. <--I thought I did until I did these exercises and got SO MANY of them wrong while attempting to use that same thinking..... :eek:

12) The children don't seem to have been playing while the teacher was there, which means that their activity was interrupted until she left. "Continuaban" would be saying that they were playing and kept on playing regardless of the teacher.

17) "Se quedaba" would suggest that she had the habit to take 100-year naps. (!)
That only happened once. ;)

19) The end of the action is given by the fact that he/she finally crashed down. "Seguía cayendo" suggests something happened in the meantime, for example, "seguía cayendo mientras pensaba que se iba a morir".

29) Same as #19. The water finally evaporated, so there is an end to the action.
Nothing happened in the meantime. One could say: "Se nos olvidó la olla y el agua se seguía evaporando mientras nosotros estábamos en el jardín".

So would it be okay to say that you would probably never use a verb in the imperfect immediately followed by "hasta"....??

Absolutely; even my response was timed nearly 4 hours after the original post.:whistling:

And here I am, just answering now.... Sorry about my delayed responses, folks - I am still traveling..... Thank you all SO much for your repeated attempts to help me understand the differences between preterit and imperfect!!!

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I thought I did until I did these exercises and got SO MANY of them wrong while attempting to use that same thinking.....
I guess you see now that the situation was rather different from these other examples. :thinking:

So would it be okay to say that you would probably never use a verb in the imperfect immediately followed by "hasta"....??
Not exactly. Only when the sentence does not reflect a habit or a continued activity. The hint will be an agreement with verbal tenses:

·Mi mamá se quedaba leyéndome un cuento hasta que me dormía. -> She did that every night.
·Mi mamá se quedó leyéndome un cuento hasta que me dormí. -> Last night or one night.

·El perro seguía ladrando hasta que sus dueños llegaban. -> Any time the noisy dog was left alone would bark and bark...
·El perro siguió ladrando hasta que sus dueños llegaron. -> For the sake of neighbours ears, this happened only once.

(Please note these aren't autobiographical examples.) :rolleyes:

[Luna Azul]

(Please note these aren't autobiographical examples.) :rolleyes:

:lol::lol::lol:

[wrholt]

In this case, the sentence was embedded within a story, where the focus of time shifts forward from point to point within the story. At the point of the story where you report "La mujer necesitaba ir a la parada", the needing was ongoing and incomplete/unfinished, and nothing has happened yet to end the needing. At this point in the story, the state of needing to go to the bus stop is the background against which the going to the bus starts. All of this requires using the imperfect to describe the state of needing. The fact that the needing ends in the future in relation to that point of the story is irrelevent; you haven't gotten there yet.

So, all of that overrides the fact that the "needing" only happened once and has been completed.....


So let me come back to this discussion, because I have a related question. I was having lunch with some Peruvian friends this morning. I was telling a story, and at one point in my story, a guest at a dinner given two weeks ago needed to walk to the bus stop nearby. So I said "Ella necesitó caminar a la parada...." At this point, all of them (including their 11-year-old son whose better language is English) corrected me and said that it was supposed to be "necesitaba" because it's past tense. I repeated myself, saying that I wanted the "o" to have the stress, and maybe I didn't say it right. The father, who has been a Spanish teacher on and off over the years, tried to explain to me that "necesitaba" if it's something that is ongoing, and "necesitó" if it's something that happened in one moment. And my response was that to me, it seems like her need to go to the bus was something that happened in that moment. And at this point, my wonderful Peruvian friends gave up explaining to me.......

Hopefully my friends here in the Forums won't give up on me quite so quickly. Please help me to understand why it needs to be imperfect there..... THANKS!!

Yes, the needing to go to the bus happened 2 weeks earlier, it happened once, and it was completed as of the time that you were recounting the story to your friends.

However, in your story, when you said "Ella necesitó caminar a la parada....", you said that, at that very moment 2 weeks earlier, she had needed to go to the bus stop and the needing was already complete! So why would she bother to go on to the bus stop if she no longer needed to go there?

The choice of imperfect or preterite isn't about completion or lack of completion now/in the present, it's about completion or lack of completion as of the moment in the past that is the time of reference.

Consider two scenarios that happen right now:

1. I say to you: "Necesito ir a la parada". (I need to, it hasn't ended yet. You then accompany me to the bus and see me off.)
2. I say to you: "Necesité ir a la parada". (I needed to in the past, I don't need to any more. We then part ways.)

Some time passes, and you are talking to your friend about what I said 2 hours ago. The two scenarios are now:

1. Mi amigo dijo que necesitaba ir a la parada. (He needed to, and it hadn't ended yet.)
2. Mi amigo dijo que necesitó ir a la parada. (He had needed to, but didn't need to any more.)