Reflexive form : olvidarse, ocurrirse, ...

[Yendred]

Hi all,

About the reflexive forms like olvidarse, ocurrirse, ...



"se me ha olvidado" refers to the reflexive infinitive "olvidarse" (forget, leave behind)
"se me ha ocurrido" refers to the reflexive infinitive "ocurrirse" (have an idea, think of)


Now the question: in the infinitive form "olvidarse", does "se" correspond to "se" in "se me ha olvidado" or to "me" in "se me ha olvidado"? Why is there only one pronoun in the infinitive form, and two pronouns in the conjugated form?

If I compare with other expression like "cortarse el pelo" --> "me he cortado el pelo". In that case, these is only one pronoun in both infinitive and conjugated forms.

Hope my questions are clear, because this is all not so clear for me ;)
Thanks for your answers !

[wrholt]

The quick answer: in the infinitive form "olvidarse", "se" corresponds to "se" in "se me ha olvidado".

A litte bit of analysis: it CANNOT correspond to "me" in "se me ha olvidado". Why? "Me" is first-person singular, and the conjugated verb "ha" is third-person singular: "me" CANNOT refer to the subject of "ha", as the concordance is wrong.

Here's a variation: "se le ha olvidado (a Juan/María/usted)". In this case the "se" from the infinitive "olvidarse" still corresponds to the "se" in "se le ha olvidado (a Juan/María/usted)". Why not to "le"? After all, "le" is third-person singular and "ha" is third-person singular. However, "le" NEVER refers to the subject of the verb: the only third-person object pronoun that can refer to the subject of a third-person verb is "se".

[Rusty]

Actually, what may not be so clear is that a certain structure is being used in Spanish to take the blame from oneself. Some affectionately call this the "accidental 'se'." The pronominal form (olvidarse) isn't at play here at all.

The literal translation of "se me ha olvidado" is "it has forgotten itself on me." This is a very strange English sentence, but the Spanish version is very commonly used. Anytime you've forgotten something, don't take the blame for it and use the Spanish expression. Se me olvidó la tarea. Se me olvidaron las llaves. Se me cayó el vaso.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Adding to what has been said, maybe the discussion here (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=13735) would also help. :)