El doncel / la doncella

[laepelba]

Do these words indicate nobility or servants? I can't tell from the definitions. And are they equivalent except for the gender? I find more nobility references for doncel than for doncella....

[JPablo]

Indicate nobility AND servants... since they served the kings... But in order to serve a king you couldn't be a "nobody"...

"Doncella" is equivalent in some senses, but not exactly. It is more used currently, while "doncel" has become almost archaic. (If you check DRAE definitions you can see the differences...)

[laepelba]

Thanks. And I have seen the differences. But they weren't making sense to my English brain. I think of "nobleman" and "noblewoman" as referring to the same "level", so to speak. I would never think of the servant of nobility being anywhere near the level of the nobility that they serve. Interesting that the one has fallen out of common use and the other hasn't....

[poli]

It's like damsel in English. I don't know if there is a current male equivalent of damsel English. Dame is to damsel what sir is to ....:thinking:

[JPablo]

Yes, "damsel" = damisela, doncella.
Dame = dama.
Sir = señor.
Young nobleman = doncel.

Doncel = page, servant, young squire.

The "problem" is that the word is used with different nuances in different contexts, but the point is the activities of "serving a king" or that work in itself, in terms of carrying his weapons, armor, etc. is not activity being done today... while "doncella" still keeps the "activity" of her work in current days... (Don't think this has a particular "machista" reason... but whatever it is, that's the way it has turned out to be...)

@Lou Ann, I though about the expression "nobleza obliga" (somehow related to this)... In this forum they discuss it,
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=687083

I bring this up, because, at least in Spain, to have to honor of serving a king was not bestowed to any-Juan...

[pjt33]

Thanks. And I have seen the differences. But they weren't making sense to my English brain. I think of "nobleman" and "noblewoman" as referring to the same "level", so to speak. I would never think of the servant of nobility being anywhere near the level of the nobility that they serve.
The problem is your American brain, not your English language :p

Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentleman_of_the_Bedchamber and observe how many are from the higher ranks of peerage (Duke, Marquess, Earl).

[Perikles]

I have just just came across this when reading Dickens Great Expectations in Spanish. This


She would rather I did not travel alone, and objects to receiving my maid, for she has a sensitive horror of being talked about by such people.


is translated as


Ella preferirá que no viaje sola y no le gusta que me haga acompañar por la doncella, porque siente el mayor horror por los chismes de esa gente.

[chileno]

Bad translation, and I guess it would be considered an excellent interpretation by those people that don't like literal translations.

:D

[laepelba]

I bring this up, because, at least in Spain, to have to honor of serving a king was not bestowed to any-Juan...

HAHAHA... Any-Juan..... :)

The problem is your American brain, not your English language :p

You are SO right about that. A big part of me doesn't even want to know the answer to my question here. I know nothing of the levels of social status in societies with formal nobility and I don't want to know. Very American.....

I have just just came across this when reading Dickens Great Expectations in Spanish.

I don't like the English sentence - it's awkward (to my modern American English ears...)

[Perikles]

I don't like the English sentence - it's awkward (to my modern American English ears...)

As PJT said:

The problem is your American brain, not your English language :p.
:p:p