General Franco

[Elaina]

Buenos Dias!

Para aquellos que viven en España, es acaso hoy un día festivo?

Estoy leyendo un artículo que habla del General Francisco Franco y veo que murió en 1975 el 20 de noviembre.

No conozco la historia en su totalidad pero creo o parece que no era una persona muy buena. Estoy equivocada?

hhmmmm:impatient::impatient:

[Tomisimo]

I think people were really divided. Some loved him and some hated him. Similar to Porfirio Díaz in Mexico.

[poli]

I know that in Spain there was a controversial move made by Judge Balthezar Garzón to exhume graves in an attempt it identify all the people
who have disappeared during his reign which lasted almost 40 years. His
victory in the Spanish Civil War was seen as the first Fascist military victory. The fascist regime of Franco was the only one to survive World War II. In defense of this evil man, some of his opponents were no angels either. Although the Republicans (Franco's foes) were known for their great artists (Lorca, Unamuno), and their progressive ways, some went to the extreme and were supportive of Stalin the Russian Communist leader at the time who wasn't much better than the Fascist extremist Hitler.

There's a huge monument built by Franco called El Valle de los Caídos.
I have heard it was built by enslaved civil war prisoners. Many died in the process. Supposedly the monument is dedicated to all who have died in the civil war. It's really a creepy place:yuck:. All those dedications to La Catrina in Mexico don't come near in their creepiness to the hillside in Spain where the monument is located.

[CrOtALiTo]

My country today is holiday because we celebrate us the dependence day, today November 20st, today is glorious day for us, because as you know, we celebrate us the Revolucion Mexica señores, then I don't know exactly the full history but, I can set in this post a tiny review above of the celebrating of my country today, if you can to practice Spanish this is the moment, I will write all in Spanish, I wish you good luck in your reading.:applause:


El 20 de noviembre México conmemora la Revolución
Las décadas de 1910 y 1920 fueron el escenario de una serie de revueltas sociales que intentaban transformar el sistema político y social creado por el entonces presidente Porfirio Díaz.
Madero, Villa, Zapata

Porfirio Díaz, aunque integró a México en la ola del "progreso", se había ganado la antipatía de los mexicanos después de su permanencia de 30 años en el poder. Francisco I. Madero, un rico terrateniente del norte del país, puso manos en el asunto y se postuló en las elecciones de 1910. Aunque Madero triunfó, Díaz lo encarceló y se declaró vencedor. Refugiado en San Antonio, Texas, Madero escribió el Plan de San Luis Potosí, en el que denunciaba el fraude electoral y se declaraba Presidente Provisional de la República e incitaba a la población a que se levantara en armas el 20 de noviembre de ese mismo año.

Al llamado acudieron dos grandes hombres con sus tropas: en el norte Pancho Villa contra los gobiernos municipales, y en el sur, Emiliano Zapata contra los caciques locales.

El país desequilibrado

Villa y Zapata movilizaron a la población campesina y obrera y lucharon implacables, hasta que las tropas estatels los asesinaron en 1919. La situación del país era de desestabilización. Por la silla presidencial pasaron Madero, Victoriano Huerta, Venustiano Carranza y Álvaro Obregón. Se elaboraron leyes que protegieron a los obreros, ferrocarrileros y campesinos y se creó la Constitución de 1917, documento que nos rige hasta nuestros días.
En cuestiones sociales, la revolución se convirtió en un modo de vida, surge la figura de la Adelita, la mujer revolucionaria, los corridos y la famosísima canción La Cucaracha, que hacía referencia a los soldados en guerra.

Aunque para la mayoría de las personas la revolución terminó en 1920, existieron guerrillas hasta 1934, y Lázaro Cárdenas se considera el último presidente que siguió el pensamiento de la Revolución.

El desfile conmemorativo

El 20 de noviembre se celebra a lo largo de todo el país, se considera un día festivo y la mayoría de la gente no va a trabajar. En cada ciudad se hacen eventos cívicos y honores a la bandera para recordar a los héroes. Este día se marcha por las principales calles y como el desfile lleva el apellido de "deportivo", escuelas e instituciones locales participan con tablas rítmicas y acrobacias.

Para ver el desfile, ¿qué tal un desayuno en el Malecón? Asista con la familia y disfrute frente al mar del espectáculo.

Visite además los restaurantes y bares del Malecón, ese fin de semana ¡las noches serán por demás revolucionarias!

[Tomisimo]

Feliz Revolucion! :)

[Elaina]

Gracias por la leccion de historia.

Entonces el Gen. Franco tenía una relación "love/hate" con su gente.

La historia de La Catrina es muy interesante pero tambien no muy buena!:yuck:

[poli]

Creo que La Catrina se admiran más en Mexico que Franco en España. La Catrina en su modo fantasmagórica representa la libertad. Yo sé que en España hay gente que aman a Franco, pero ahora menos. Al contrario a La Catrina, el representaba la opresión. Habían dictadores peores que Franco, pero él paraba progreso en su pais por 40+ años. Cuando al fin murió, España se despertó como Rip Van Winkle después de su dormida para ver que el mundo había cambiado mucho(pero en el caso de España, no era ficción).

[Planet hopper]

Elaina,

20th of November is a day marked in Spanish history with shame. It was the day half of Spain kowtowed to a nazi-like rebel in 1936, so starting one of the very few civil conflicts in a european country in the 20th century. Yes, the coup de etat was led by franco, an insurgent. He is not any kind of great genius or any other tag like generalisimo. This day will never mean any kind of anniversary/festival/holiday, only for plain nazis. Sorry if the topic is politics, I don't mind about it at all, just giving info on one approach.
Franco was basically a bumpkin, a simple-minded sargeant who was at the right place&time. Short and plump, very similar to the waiter in the UK TV series Fawlty Towers, an ignorant man.
A good comparison would be Chang-kai-che (or some spelling like that) the Kuomintang general who lost the civil war to Mao in China and fleed to Taiwan. But franco DID win the war and stayed for 40 years, forcing artists and other intellectuals like Picasso to become expats in southern france.

"Although the Republicans (Franco's foes) were known for their great artists (Lorca, Unamuno), and their progressive ways, some went to the extreme and were supportive of Stalin the Russian Communist leader at the time who wasn't much better than the Fascist extremist Hitler." (From Poli)

Not only Lorca but also Vicente Aleixandre, Nobel prize of literature, were shot/forced to exile. Unamuno was an old man at the time, and he sorted himself into the franco side by means of his ideas, close to nietzsche. Poli, please, the republicans were THE country in 1936, not a bunch of stalin supporters. They were very varied among them and franco won because they were continuously quarrelling for ideology and media share (see For Whom the bell tolls, Hemingway)

Franco made Spain a banana republic for 40 years. Sad in the middle of the 20th century. El Valle de los caidos has not been pulled down because there is a monastery there. It is a creepy place, I agree, but there is no similar one for the republican side, so I was taken there once to kinda celebrate the end of the dictatorship, me being just 9 years old. I never went back.

Crotalito, Viva Sapata! :) Aqui en españa mucha gente le admira el valor que tuvo Emiliano...sois gente con valor...el año que viene escribire a periodicos para que en españa se celebre el aniversario de la revolucion mexicana. No sabia que las fechas coincidian.

Saludos a tod@s y paz en todo el mundo :)

[María José]

Gracias por la leccion de historia.

Entonces el Gen. Franco tenía una relación "love/hate" con su gente.

La historia de La Catrina es muy interesante pero tambien no muy buena!:yuck:
Yo sólo tenía once años cuando Franco se murió, pero creo que aunque hizo cosas malas estamos atravesando una época de revisionismo histórico muy sesgado aquí en España. Una de las razones por las que no soporto ver la tele española es porque parece que todo lo que hizo es malo.
Mi abuelo luchó contra Franco en la guerra, pero cuando volvió y vió que por primera vez en su vida tenía trabajo, cambió de opinión.
Y un tema que está muy de moda ahora en Estados Unidos: gracias a Franco tenemos ahora Seguridad Social en España.
No me gusta hablar de política, pero creo que hay que marcar una diferencia muy clara entre Franco y Hitler y Mussolini.
Anyway, I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, what I say is what I've heard from my parents all my life. Give me American politics any day, it's more my thing... (Ask my students and they'll tell you they know everything there is to know about Obama ;)).

[Tomisimo]

Muchas veces después de los hechos, tendemos a tratar the cambiar la historia. It's a real eye-opener to read a US History textbook from another country and compare it to a US History textbook from the United States. Or do the same with any other country. Read a history book from that country about that country's own history, then read a similar history book published in another country. Quite educativo.

[María José]

Muchas veces después de los hechos, tendemos a tratar the cambiar la historia. It's a real eye-opener to read a US History textbook from another country and compare it to a US History textbook from the United States. Or do the same with any other country. Read a history book from that country about that country's own history, then read a similar history book published in another country. Quite educativo.
I often do that with the news. I agree with you, it gives you a different perspective. Enlightening, in fact.:)

[poli]

No soy un experto en la historia del siglo 20 en España, pero si no estoy equivicado, Franco prohibiba los idiomas aparte del castillano. La
situación económica mejoró en España depués de la guerra (como el resto de Europa y Norte America), y España empezó la social seguridad como el resto de Europa, pero había lo que a mi me parece una falta de libertad. La gente ni podían hablar su propia idioma si lo que leí es correcto.

Lo bueno de la época de Franco es que España quedó como un subcontinente, un continente ibérica aparte de resto de Europa. Apartado de internacionalismo que empezó a florecer en Europa en los añs 6o con el mercado común, España cultivaba su hispanadad aislada. Ya sin Franco todo había cambiado y España es parte de la comunidad internacional de Europa y algo del carácter auctóctono de España se marchitó.

I'm not Spanish, and what I write about is from the little I have read, but
more from what I have experienced in visiting Spain over a period of time
and observing cultural changes in the country.

Please don't take what I say as the final word, but I think there may be some sense to it. I don't wish to insult anybody and almost every leaderh as accomplished something good, (Mussolini drained the marshes and
made the trains run on time). Even Bush may have done something good,
although at the moment nothing comes to mind. I can't help but think that
a generation of Spaniards was short changed by Franco's 40 year semi-closed door.

[María José]

History, like everything in life, is subjective. I'll have to put you in touch with my Mum. She'll give you a piece of her mind...;)

[poli]

I would love to speak with her, but it feel that I would be una cucaracha
en un baile de gallinas. She knows more that I having lived through it.

Sin embargo miro a evidencia imperical. Inglaterra produjo": The Loneliness
of a Long Distance Runner, Georgy Girl, Room at the Top, Morgan, Julie Christie, Alan Bates. Vanessa Redgrave, Georgia Brown, Albert Finney(I could go on) France had Godard, Demy, Denueuve, Bardot, Trintignot, Belmundo. Italy had Fellini (enough said) but also DeSica, Antonioni, Bertolucci, Sophia.

Spain a country with comparitive cultural richness produced Sara Montiel in those same years y poco más. Many of Spain's creative people seeked refuge in Mexico and France. One can't help but think that Spain was stunted under military rule.

I would love to hear her argument in favor of Franco. If she is as intellingent and well studied as you, I'm sure she could be articulate about it.

[Sancho Panther]

Let's be in no doubt about this - Franco was a monumentally, foul, evil, cruel dictator, in the same category as Hitler, Stalin, Moa Tse Tung and Pol Pot etc. Ayone who says otherwise clearly hasn't studied his biography and history, (refer to Paul Preston's 'Franco' and Hugh Thomas' 'The Spanish Civil War). Whatever good came in his regime was in spite of his efforts not because of them.

Two points from previous postings - Franco did not start the war, he was Military Governor of Las Canarias and would not commit either way to the conspirators in Madrid - he dithered and equivocated. The chosen new Head of State was to be Gen. Sanjurjo who on insiting on loading his full dress regalia into the tiny aircraft ferrying him from Portugal caused it to crash on take-off and kill him! Franco was substituted.

Furthermore he was far, far from being stupid, he was a brave and inspired soldier - in turn the youngest ever Major, Lt Col, Colonel, etc etc right to the top, he earned all his promotions. That was his trouble, he tried to run Spain as if he was an occupying General in a hostile land.

Please before anyone defends this vile, inhuman creature - go to the library and do your research.