A Direct Object Pronoun Question

[deandddd]

Members of the Forum,

I ran across this sentence in a recording, wrote it down, and never heard the recording again. I truly don't remember if it was "la" or "le". It seems to be the direct object, so I think it should be "la".

Please advise:

"En el pasado, a la mujer, no se la permitía relacionarse con hombres." It was a talk about feminism.

Isn't "la" the direct object of the verb "permitir"?

Silopanna/Dean

[Rusty]

The verb permitir takes both a direct object and an indirect object. Therefore, 'le' should be used to refer to the woman. The direct object is the noun phrase following the verb, 'relacionarse con hombres,' in your sample.

There is no direct subject in your sentence, so the impersonal 'se' is employed (it is placed prior to the indirect object pronoun (which should be 'le')). The suffixed 'se' is a reflexive pronoun.

[deandddd]

Once again, Rusty, thanks.

Silopanna/Dean

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I agree with Rusty. This is a case of "laísmo". The indirect object pronoun "le" is the grammatically correct choice; yet, in some regions speakers tend to use the direct object pronoun "la" instead of the indirect object pronoun "le" when talking about a woman.

- La dije que la amo. (Instead of "le dije que la amo".)
- La di un abrazo. (Instead of "le di un abrazo".)

[deandddd]

Angelica and Rusty,

I think that I didn't recognize the indirect object because I was thinking that "se" repeats the object when the object comes before the verb. I was thinking, then, that who does "se" represent? Because it can't be that "ella, le, se" all three represent the woman.

I know that "se" makes it the passive voice. And Rusty, you have said that "se" is reflexive. But then, my Anglosaxon mind asks, to whom is it reflexive?

What makes me think that a person has to be indicated by "se", even though it is a passive construction, is that I have been told that "se" indicates to whom, and "le" indicates number. But then the role of "se" confuses me because I think that the passive voice has no subject.

These indirect object, passive voice sentences always leave me confused. They are a speed bump to my speech.

Dean

[Rusty]

The first 'se' is used to make the subject impersonal, as I stated.
The suffixed 'se' (on 'relacionarse') is the reflexive pronoun I mentioned.
There is no passive construction in your sentence.

[deandddd]

Rusty,

So the first "se" makes the subject impersonal.

Therefore, there is a subject and the sentence has no passive construction.

I am understanding the "se le verb" construction much better. It has pretty much been the last stumbling block to my gramatical understanding. I am very happy to get so much support on this forum

[Rusty]

The pronoun 'se' is quite versatile and is used all the time.

To learn more, search for a specific usage of 'se':

{|}reflexive 'se' | (reflexive pronoun)
{|}impersonal 'se' | (¿Cómo se dice? o Se habla español.)
{|}accidental 'se' | ('no fault' construction)
{|}object pronoun 'se' | (change 'le' or 'les' to 'se' when it immediately precedes another object pronoun that starts with 'l')
{|}passive 'se' | (pasiva refleja)


La pasiva refleja shouldn't be confused with the passive voice (la voz pasiva). The passive voice isn't used in Spanish as much as it is used in English. To form the passive voice, use a conjugated form of 'ser' and a past participle.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I agree with Rusty.

"En el pasado, a la mujer no se le permitía relacionarse con hombres."

- Impersonal - There is no specific person (a subject) who won't allow women interact with men.
- Direct object
- Indirect object - In Spanish you don't allow a person himself/herself, but you must allow someone to do something. The thing you allow is the direct object and the person allowed to do it is the indirect object.

[deandddd]

Rusty &Angelica,

You two are great. I am saving your comments.

Thanks,

Dean

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Glad you find them useful. :)