No se te pasó

[Tyrn]

Hi,

¿No se te pasó por la cabeza que yo dependo de ti?

What is the business of se here? If it's pasarse, te is enough (?). It's pretty obvious (?) that se has nothing to do with the rest of the sentence after pasó. What then?

It's pretty obvious that my reasoning is flawed; what's the truth?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Your reasoning is not flawed. It's a case of a redundant usage of a pronoun for emphasis. It's quite common to use a pronoun for emphasis, even if it's not necessary.
Most people I know in Mexico would just say "¿Y no te pasó por la cabeza que...?", but it doesn't only depend on the region; it's also a matter of individual preferences.

Some people would say: "Me he leído un libro muy interesante", but many others would find the construction pleonastic: if you have read a book --unless there's reason to think you read it for someone else-- it's obvious you read it yourself, and for yourself. It's an accepted and frequent use of language. We can't even say it's wrong because daily speech is like that. :blackeye:

[Tyrn]

A bit of an eye opener. Thanks!

[Tyrn]

Emphatic usage again?

Creo que no se te ocurrió...
Se te había ocurrido pensarlo...
Todo un mundo nuevo se me olvidó...

[wrholt]

Emphatic usage again?

Creo que no se te ocurrió...
Se te había ocurrido pensarlo...
Todo un mundo nuevo se me olvidó...

No, this is a different usage that is typically called "no fault se" or "accidental se" in English.

This pattern is often used with several verbs. If you search "no fault se" in the forums here in Tomísimo you can find several threads that discuss this subject. The most recent of these threads is here (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=28563&highlight=fault).

Searching "spanish no fault se construction" in your favorite search engine will also lead you to many resources on the subject; for example, this page (https://spanish.yabla.com/lesson-The-%22No-Fault-Se%22-Construction-in-Spanish-2016).

This pattern implies that the event happened to the person experiencing it, without the person intending or choosing for it to happen; rather, it just happened naturally.

Possible translations for your sentences are:
-I think it did not occur to you...
-It had occurred to you to think that...
-A whole new world made me forget about it (forgot itself to me) = I forgot about a whole new world...

This pattern always has the pronoun "se", an indirect pronoun indicating the person who experiences the event, and a third-person verb with its singular or plural subject. Optionally there may also be an explicit indirect object introduced by the preposition "a", especially when the indirect object pronoun is le/les.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I agree with Wrholt.
As a side note on the many ways we use "se", you might find this thread (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=13735) useful. :)

[Tyrn]

No fault, yes. No problem with understanding :) . I've been just trying to make peace with the extra se. Technically, it's one se too many again, right? I'd like to have a list of cases where it is possible or required. So far we have two entries, or so I gather :p

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Technically, it's one se too many again, right?
Not this time.
"Ocurrirle algo a alguien" => Something happened to the person
"Ocurrírsele algo a alguien" => Someone had an idea.

- Iba caminando por el bosque y entonces me ocurrió que caí en una trampa para oso.
I was walking in the woods and then it happened to me that I fell into a bear trap.
- Iba caminando por el bosque y entonces se me ocurrió que podría caer en una trampa para oso.
I was walking in the woods and then I thought that I could fall into a bear trap.

- Mi abuelo siempre compra boletos de lotería pero nunca le ocurre ganarla.
My grandfather always buys lotto tickets, but he never gets to win it.
- Mi abuelo siempre compra boletos de lotería pero nunca se le ocurre que no va a ganar nada.
My grandfather always buys lotto tickets, but he never thinks he'll never win anything.

- Estaba en la calle cuando le ocurrió que un auto lo atropelló.
He was in the street when it happened to him that a car ran him over.
- Estaba en la calle cuando se le ocurrió que podía comprar un auto.
He was in the street when it ocurred to him that he could buy a car.

- Volvernos ricos es algo que quisiéramos que nos ocurriera a todos.
To become rich is something that we all would like to happen to us.
- Cómo volvernos ricos es algo que quisiéramos que se nos ocurriera a todos.
We all would like to find an effective way to become rich.

- Sólo a Wile E. Coyote le ocurre que le caiga un yunque del cielo.
Only Wile E. Coyote gets hit by an anvil falling from the sky.
- Sólo a Wile E. Coyote se le ocurre cazar un correcaminos con un yunque.
Only Wile E. Coyote can think of hunting a roadrunner with an anvil.

[Tyrn]

Still, there's something I keep on missing.

No se te pasó por la cabeza... is the same as Y no te pasó por la cabeza.... Extra se, OK.

With ocurrir vs ocurrirse it's another story because ocurrir and ocurrirse are essentially two different words? Makes obvious sense, kinda.

Mind you, I have no trouble understanding all the sentences, it's intuitive enough. I can't yet catch where the subtle difference is. Is it that pasar and pasarse have the same meaning and you just don't need se?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I've been thinking about this and this is the best explanation I can come up with. If you keep asking questions, I'll study a little more. :D


With ocurrir vs ocurrirse it's another story because ocurrir and ocurrirse are essentially two different words? Makes obvious sense, kinda.
I wouldn't say they're two different words. As Wrholt said, this is a case where "se" is used to talk about an "accidental" action. The idea happened spontaneously in your mind, not in your whole body, if you will. :D
Although you might find things like "me ocurre pensar que..." instead of "se me ocurre pensar que..." in literature, the common usage of the verb to make a difference of both meanings is well established in the dictionary. ;)


Mind you, I have no trouble understanding all the sentences, it's intuitive enough. I can't yet catch where the subtle difference is. Is it that pasar and pasarse have the same meaning and you just don't need se?
In this example of "pasar", "se" is most probably influenced by how we use "ocurrírsele algo a alguien", where this idea passing through someone's head is an accidental/spontaneous event. :)