Grammar questions from Marcelino Pan y Vino by José María Sánchez-Silva

[Quaeso]

Here's a thread about this little book. My Spanish isn't great, so thank you for your patience. I was unable to locate a very accessible online version, so I hope that doesn't cause any issues for you finding the context.


"Con la hora del Angelus llegaron los frailes que habían salido temprano y relataron al padre cuanto les había acontecido. Como si previamente se hubiesen puesto de acuerdo movieron la cabeza con desconfianza cuando fueron interrogados sobre la determinación de las diferentes autoridades a quienes habían informado del caso." -Marcelino I. III. ~line 20

Is it true that Como si... does not form a proper conditional? And I take it that se hubiesen puesto is a reflexive pluperfect subjunctive? And why is it in the subjunctive? Also is it necessary for me to post an English translation for something like this?

[aleCcowaN]

There's no conditional in the paragraph. It's a phrase that works as an adverb ("como si previamente se hubiesen puesto de acuerdo") meaning "[in a fashion] as if they had previously agreed to do it that way". The use of subjunctive mood points to the grammatical function (an adverbial phrase) reinforced by the fact the action didn't happen (they didn't coordinate their actions).

[poli]

There is a direct translation in English. It uses the less common English subjunctive. Como si is as if follow by a subjunctive, as in as if it were (or in your example, it had previously...).

[Quaeso]

The use of subjunctive mood points to the grammatical function (an adverbial phrase) reinforced by the fact the action didn't happen (they didn't coordinate their actions).


Thank you, what do you mean by adverbial phrase? and does every adverbial phrase take a subjunctive?

[aleCcowaN]

Thank you, what do you mean by adverbial phrase? and does every adverbial phrase take a subjunctive?

Any phrase that works as an adverb, from simple phrases

de soslayo (out of the corner of one's eyes) ---> Lo miró de soslayo (she glanced at him sideways)

a horcajadas (astride) ----> se sentó a horcajadas del tronco (He straddled the log)

to more complex phrases that may contain verbs

(Como si previamente se hubieran puesto de acuerdo) is an adverb that affects (movieron la cabeza), which in turn is followed by another adverbial phrase (con desconfianza)

Movieron la cabeza con desconfianza = Movieron la cabeza desconfiadamente

(Como si previamente se hubieran puesto de acuerdo) movieron la cabeza (con desconfianza)

(movieron la cabeza) is "sandwiched" between two adverbs.

[Quaeso]

Thank you, it looks like they are commonly begun by a preposition of some sort (de, a, con), but obviously not all of them take the subjunctive. And I'm guessing that what is more important is that the subjunctive verb here did not actually happen, and so is labelled as 'hypothetical' or 'contrary to fact'.

A todo esto, el padre Superior no había perdido el tiempo. Encargó a cada faile preguntar, allí donde se dirigiera, a quién podría pertenecer el niño y lo que las autoridades de cada punto podían hacer por el. -Marcelino I. III. ~line 1 Is se dirigiera in the past subjunctive because it indicates a future action in the past? And is podría in the conditional because it is something uncertain? Is podían is here in the indicative because it is a factual (substantive clause) statement about what the friars were charged to ask the authorities?

[aleCcowaN]

allí donde se dirigiera = wherever the friar went (among the many destinations in his route) or where the friar was assigned to go. It is implied the same protocol was to be applied in every place, hence subjunctive (to blur the location) and imperfect

a quién podría pertenecer---> asking for hypothesis about who could be the parents (one, many or no answers in every place)

lo que las autoridades podían hacer ---> there were people in power in every place certainly with the potential to do something about the matter

Have you noticed that all your questions about tenses, moods and aspects in Spanish, which rule all verbs, are all around modal auxiliary verbs in English (can, could, may, might, shall, should, will, would and must) which are not like other verbs?

[Quaeso]

Why the angry face? I hope that I'm not frustrating you with my questions. Should I be asking them in a different way?

[aleCcowaN]

Why the angry face? I hope that I'm not frustrating you with my questions. Should I be asking them in a different way?
I'm sorry, don't pay any attention to it, it's just my big sloppy fingers that touch inadvertently the icons in the built-in editor while I'm fighting with the Spanish spell checker changing all I write into crap, like it into ir and see into ser.

I need 10 to 20 previews before a long post is good enough for publication and I never pay attention to the icons.

[Quaeso]

Haha, okay, I'm no Shakespeare either. I appreciate the help.


Have you noticed that all your questions about tenses, moods and aspects in Spanish, which rule all verbs, are all around modal auxiliary verbs in English (can, could, may, might, shall, should, will, would and must) which are not like other verbs? I think that's because the English modal aux. verbs correspond at least partially to the Spanish Subjunctive, which is my greatest difficulty at this point. When I was learning Latin, that was my main problem as well. And although the Latin and Spanish subjunctives are similar, I can see that they are by no means the same. The Latin subjunctive seems to have a more precise, systematic usage; but I'm still not very familiar with the Spanish system yet, if you could call it that. I'm only beginning to read Espinosa's grammar, but the main division he makes in the usage of the Spanish Subjunctive appears to be that between those used in Independent clauses, and those used in Dependent clauses.

The main trouble now seems to be understanding how the Spanish conditional differs from the past subjunctive (there is no unique conditional/potential mood in Latin either), I think because in English they are both rendered with the auxiliary "might" or "would".

[aleCcowaN]

Spanish condicional used to be regarded as the potential mood, but contemporary grammars see it as part of the indicative mood.

So, there are only two moods in Spanish, indicative and subjunctive. Foreign students tend to regard Spanish subjunctive as capricious and arbitrary, full of triggers like a Venus flytrap, with more exceptions than rules, but the problem is they have never really learned Spanish indicative. If they had, they would understand subjunctive catches all that's not indicative.

There's a saying among grammarians. When a Spanish speaker says "llueve", be sure it is raining indeed. Spanish indicative is the realm of what is happening, whether in reality or as an abstraction.

My favourite example in English is

I want you to go

If I said "I want you go", both actions would clash, competing for the spotlight, so the action that's not happening is reduced to a shell by using infinitive "I want you to go" (in English, wishes trigger infinitive ... what a stupid thing to say, well, wishes triggering Spanish subjunctive is as stupid as that)

Quiero que vayas

is exactly the same with two differences: the shell contains information about the pronoun, and it is introduced by the conjunction que.

Back to Pan y Vino, "encargó a cada fraile preguntar, allí donde se dirigiera,..." is interesting. Your question makes me think you saw there "allí donde se dirigiría" in subjunctive disguise.

There are three valid phrasings there

Encargó a cada fraile preguntar,...
[I]allí donde se dirigía...
[II]allí donde se dirigiría...
[III]allí donde se dirigiera...

I and II are indicative, so "it's really raining", the action of travelling becomes important for some reason, although the motiff is the enquiry and not the travelling needed.

I is "wherever he went" with accent in "he went"
II is "wherever he would go"

but this is not the relevant thing in the paragraph, so we need the rain to stop. This is achieved with III, which means "wherever he went" with accent in wherever, pointing to the same protocol is to be applied independently of the destination and disregarding the obvious, that is, that each friar had to go to his destination.

[Quaeso]

That is helpful to analyze the three scenarios, thank you.


But I'm wondering about this:
I [...dirigía- imperfect indicative] is "wherever he went" with accent in "he went" How would you say "where he went", meaning "exactly where he went"? Could you still use donde to say that?

[aleCcowaN]

adonde fue/adonde iba

It's context dependent.

But I was intentionally vague, because "allí donde se dirigiera" more precisely translates into "(there,) where he was headed" and the meaning is completely lost. The point is the destination and not the voyage nor the itinerary, so donde is used instead of adonde.

With accent in he went ---> where he was headed
With accent in wherever ---> where he was headed —but this is not the point— ---> allí donde se dirigiera (no llueve, if you catched my explanation about moods)

There's no translation that can really help. The only hope is to foster a new way of thinking, the Spanish way.